GoldFinger1969

Well, I don't have that one yet but I have the 2002 Sotheby's catalog. I'll see if they have something more convincing.

Source ?

I though Roger also said above that "time relevant" -- which I took to mean then-current prices -- also were in play. Kind of defeats the purpose to have to pay current prices if you go back in time to an auction. You'd be overpaying bigtime if you went back in time but paid today's prices.

The 1912 and 1920 Saint Double Eagle are both condition rarities in the grades you were looking...the population census there is only a few dozen coins or so and the population DRAMATICALLY plunges if you go up 1 grade.

We're talking Saints, right ? Just want to make sure we're on the same page. So...you are saying that there's been a doubling -- or more -- for some super-rare Saints in the last 18-24 months ? That's interesting because it definitely has NOT filtered down to semi-rare/scarce or more common or generic Saint years and mintmarks. Usually, a rising tide lifts all boats. OTOH, I guess that the plentiful supply in the lower grades or plentiful years/mintmarks makes lifting those prices more dependent on the price of gold which has been flat-to-down. Good luck with your registry build, CB.

The Norweb 1908-S was David Akers FAVORITE Saint of them all. I've never seen these kinds of colors, I don't know if it is the lighting or what. But the colors are out of this world and I believe you can make a case that this coin could be an MS-68.

Have you been tracking the prices on those coins ? I'd be curious what they went for some time ago...like maybe late-2019/early-2020, pre-Covid ?

Wow, good job getting Mr. Eliasberg to autograph it. Considering his state after the auction, that's a tough one.

The coins the government has at Fort Knox have been visible to the public or on display or seen for about 10-12 days since 2002. 10 coins...visible 10-12 days in total....over 20 years. Infinitely accessible, huh ?

Those darn Monroe Brothers. And I blame Mr. Haney for the phone !

Exactly....a coin-for-coin exchange was legal and there was no formal prohibition of releasing the 1933's at that time either in bulk OR via exchange. Folks were waiting to see what the brand-new FDR Administration was going to do. But the expectation was that the 1933 Double Eagle coins WOULD eventually be released -- that's why they kept striking them into May, a full month after exchanges got officially paused.

Good one, I mentioned it another thread but forgot to list that in this one. You could have bought lots of nice coins but NOT the 1933 Saint since the Treasury asked them to yank it.

If you don't like the goldbugs of yesteryear, that's one thing. But those guys weren't in violation of the law and Constitution, the Roosevelt Administration was the one skating on thin ice. Banning the private ownership of gold (except if you were a "dealer" or "collector") ? Taking $2,000 of coins from Switt -- no compensation or reimbursement -- on a license technicality ? Seizing coins ? Harassing hobbyists ? You're aware that the Treasury/Mint take the position (or did take it) that they can seize lots of rarities like the 1913 Liberty Nickel, right ?

Um.....2020 vs. 1943 is a 77 year difference. I am pretty sure folks going to the Philadelphia Mint were just getting the next year's coin....a jump on the official release, at best. 1933 vs. 1932 Saint is NOT 2020-P vs. 1943-D Aluminum cent.

I'm not sure I understand. Going BACK in time and paying the then-prices makes sense. If I have to pay TODAY'S prices, that defeats the purpose, right ? I would probably go back in time to the 1930's or 1940's and go to one of the Abe Kossoff or Max Mehl auctions that featured some valuable Saints going for < $1,000. I might even go to the actor Adolphe Menjou's acutions, alive or deceased, and pick up some of the Superb Gem MCMVII High Reliefs. I would stay away from the Eliasburg Auction, even though down from the peak in PM prices from 1979-80, still a huge increase from the prices he paid decades earlier.

Yup, he was. Good catch ! And yes...Eva Gabor especially in Season 1 was one of the most beautiful women ever on a TV sitcom. Arnold Ziffel would have been an improvement on some of those jurors. Or as judge.

I would have appreciated a judge or at least 1 juror with a knowledge of Mint coin exchange policies. Or an NBA fan familiar with "No Harm, No Foul."

If he's such a thief and such a "dirty man"....how come he was a VIP at the Philadelphia Mint through the 1960's ? I would think if the guy STOLE valuable coins they'd have barred him pronto. Instead, he's taking his grandkids on VIP tours when they were kids.

Yeah, everyone knows Manhattan Gold & Silver's webite is THE legal authority. It's right up there in the legal Hall Of Fame along with John Marshall, Leonard Hand, Oliver Wendell Holmes, Oliver Wendell Douglas, and Antonin Scalia. I think the website was even featured in a few episodes of "Law & Order."

Now you're really going over the top. Crime family ? Receiving STOLEN goods ? How did Izzy steal them -- by giving something of equal value ? It's done ALL the time, Kurt, or do you think Charles Barber just happened to be the high and sole bidder for the 7 or 8 MCMVII UHRs that he had in his estate ? No, he paid "fair value" -- $20 (!!! ) and got the coins which were sold probably for 100x that amount after he croaked. Insiders get special deals ALL the time. If Izzy got the 1933's when it was debateful if it was legal or months later when it was more clear it wan't, there still wasn't any harm. No formal DO NOT RELEASE order was given regarding the 1933's and coin-for-coin exchanges were DONE ALL THE TIME. The coins being exchanged, however, went up 40-50 fold in the next 10 years and THAT is the reason why the Treasury/Mint went after the coins. It resented goldbugs like Izzy making in 1 transaction what clowns like Leland Howard made in a year. The coins are sitting in Fort Knox generating NO INTEREST among the public and NO TAX REVENUE for the government when they could be the centerpiece of some great promotions of coin collecting and putting $$$ into the government's coffers. Lose-Lose, thanks to career beauracrats.

Great post, Coinbuf. LDhall, you asked a very good question one asked by many intermediate and even expert coin collectors. If you go over the PCGS and NGC Hall of Holders throughout time, you can see certain holders associated with more stringent grading standards...and most importantly.....the time period about 2004 when most veterans seem to indicate that market grading supplanted technical grading and standards were loosened. Now, just because a coin is in a holder that is associated with "tough" or "easy" grading doesn't mean it is weak for the grade or misgraded. First of all, it can have a CAC sticker which certainly means it is very solid for the grade irrepsective of the holder. Second, some graders may be more forgiving of blemishes in fields on the obverse or reverse or edge of the coin which people who collect that particular coin (or you yourself) may NOT prefer. So someone grades a Saint-Gaudens Double Eagle in 1994 and they graded it "tough" because it had marks in the obverse fields but maybe it's a different coin where collectors are more concerned with the reverse. Or it's tough to find any coin unless one 2 or 3 grades higher that does NOT have marks in the fields. That sort of thing. Ultimately, you want to buy the COIN and not the LABEL or the HOLDER. You'll see that lots of times here and on other coin sites. Always go by your eyes in judging a coin, but for sure, if you have a coin in a holder associated with "tough" grading and you think it looks undergraded, it might well be (or not). And a coin in a holder during a period of "loose" grading might be overgraded (or not). It's also true that each of the TPGs -- PCGS and NGC -- have certain reputations for being harder or easier with certain coins. So the one associated with more expertise and "tougher" grading -- even if not justified -- may see their coins sell for a premium. We've seen that play out with PCGS in U.S. domestic coins and NGC in foreign coins. Yet I've noted here and elsewhere that some of the most egregious overgrades and re-grades into valuable $$$ territotory happened under PCGS, not NGC, and it is the former that trades at a premium as the "better" grader so go figure.

So the Langbord's are criminals ? Someone call the Philadelphia Mint and have them up their security: Joan Langbord was 7 years old when the coins left the Mint. Her 2 kids weren't born yet (although I'm sure the government will say it's possible 7-year old Joan had 2 sons already and were her accomplices). Seriously, we know Isreal Switt got the coins. Not sure how Joan Langbord, 90-years old or close to it at the trial, deserves being called a criminal. Nor her 2 sons (one of whom is a pretty big enterainment lawyer, I understand).

Apparently, he did. I know he won the 1933 at Sotheby's famous auction in 2002. He was a collector of unique objects -- not necessarily coins -- and he may have accumulated the stamps years later. No, had the U.S. Government and Steven Fenton NOT made a deal, the coin would have remained at the vault located at the WTC. I believe it was removed a few weeks or a month or two before the 9/11 attacks. A bit of a mish-mash, so let me try and separate them: 1933's had been seen over the years up to about 1945-50 when they began to be confiscated and destroyed. The Weitzman/Fenton/Farouk 1933 was in Farouk's "estate" if you can call it that when auctioned off in England in the early-1950's. Top coins and currency in the last 18 months have come from NUMEROUS sources, not just a single estate. The Langbord Ten are the 10 1933 Double Eagles that were found in an old safe belonging to the descendants of Israel Switt, a 1930's antique and gold dealer who had connections to the Philadelphia Mint and is believed to have swapped or stolen (take your pick ) the 10 coins. His daughter is Joan Langbord, who found the coins.

Remember, had the coins been split 50-50....the government would have ended up with close to 75% of the proceeds. Their half of the coins PLUS 35-40% income tax rate on the sale of the Langbord's share.

My position is that without Israel Switt, these 10 coins would have been melted down. We should have been grateful that the guy "snuck" them out of Philly Mint and preserved them. A settlement would have been fair to BOTH sides -- and the public and the U.S. Treasury and IRS (lots of taxable income as the coins were sold). Indeed, the U.S. government was talking settlement with the Langbords and their attorney as they discussed the coins. Once the government had the coins (bad strategy on the Langbord attorney's part, IMO), the government basically said "Bleep You." Not very honorable or ethical, regardless of the merits of the trial and who you think should have won.