GoldFinger1969

1908 Wells Fargo No Motto MS-69: I almost missed that the same exact MS-69 (1 of 10 from the hoard) sold for 2x the price it sold for less than 2 years earlier. From PCGS: In another example, Heritage Auctions sold one of only 10 PCGS-graded MS69 No Motto Saint-Gaudens Double Eagles for $96,000 in January 2020. The very same coin hit the market in September at GreatCollections where it brought exactly double the previous price – $192,375, including the buyer’s fee.

Demographics are tricky to predict. I agree that the size of a move in purely numismatic coins and a move in PMs (gold & silver) like we saw from 1946-80 is NOT likely to repeat. Just like the bear market in bonds that took place as yields rose from 2% in 1946 to 15.5% in 1981 is not likely to repeat However....there's lots of $$$ out there. SWFs, CBs, institutional investors, retail -- they all like bullion and coins/bars made out of buillion. Classic, including pre-1933, gold can NOT be increased in supply as opposed to modern coins and modern bullion strikings. Is the market shrinking ? One would think so....but the population in the U.S. is increasing so if the % of people interested is falling the total can be increasing...flat...or declining at a slower rate.....plus people have information and bidding opportunities at their fingertips, and it's easy to find coins in terms of effort and time, if not price. A few years ago everyone thought baseball cards were NEVER coming back and they are the hottest collectibles out there along with this NFT stuff etc.

The judge was a clown, falling asleep in the court room and showing clear biases. Witnesses for the Langbords were treated like crud (including RWB) while David Tripp -- who didn't even know about the March 7th 1933 telegram allowing for gold exchanges -- was treated with kid gloves. When they thought that Roy Langbord was just a pawn shop worker, they tried to intimidate him with an arrest and read him his Miranda Rights. Then they found out he was a lawyer and graduate of NYU Law School and they did a 180 faster than you can say "Saint-Gaudens." The same government wanted to throw Fenton in jail over the Farouk coin and they didn't find the Export/Import Letter which was key to splitting the coin. If the 1933 Saints had fallen back in price like the MCMVII High Reliefs instead of soaring 25-50 fold....the Treasury and Mint never would have had interest in going after them. Especially since the gold books were already balanced, so if Old Izzy had stolen the coins, there should have been a shortfall not a balanced ledger.

I know you have a different perspective, but I didn't believe the FBI/Treasury/Mint at the time and nothing I've seen from the feds since then has assured me that they told the truth 100% and the other side lied 100%.

It's simply the rarest of all the Saints and has a great story, thanks to the U.S: government stealing (IMO) the Langbord 10. Strike and appearance are maybe at best a bit above average. I think the MCMVII UHR and High Relief (top-grade) blow it away in terms of apperance, if not rarity and price.

1933 Update: PCGS' Twitter feed has these nice hi-def pics plus some commentary. I don't know if it's the lighting or even touching-up (I don't think so)....but I MUCH prefer these pics which to me are how my own eyes would see the coin rather than the pics I posted at the beginning of this thread.

The coins were coming out of a 10-year bear market (maybe longer). It could be the start of a new bull market in U.S. coins OR just a bear-market rally. Oversold market.....coins down 50-75% in price from 2010....fears of inflation....people at home with $$$ to buy....new buyers finding out about Ebay, GC, HA, etc....plenty of tinder for a big move up. I'm not so sure it's insane. Not anymore than oil going from $-30/barrel to $90/barrel in less than 2 years.

Which coin prices seem high to you ?

1908 WF NM PRICING: Studying the pricing of the 1908 Wells Fargo NM, it appears 2 clear trends emerged: one, the pricing at about $1,150 in 1997 was consistent with the then-price and recent past pricing of other common Saints like the 1924 and 1927 in MS-65 grade. Two, the price decline in subsequent years for all 3 common Saints mimicked one another. I think if can be safely said that the huge surplus of 1908 NM's was pretty well absorbed into the market. Unless there were unseen discounts or other perks, pricing seems to have been tracking other common Saints at the Gem Quality level. It appears that with thousands or tens of thousands available already at the MS-65 and below level, the BIGGEST impact was on the Superb Gem grades (MS-67) and higher.

Maybe....but I'm sure things were cuthroat back then. I enjoyed your stories about Kosoff and the Oldtimers in the Saints DE book. Love stuff like that !!

Clarification....I am not saying Abe K. did this. I'm just saying it's the kind of thing people could MISINTERPET without knowing ALL the facts. In the example above, maybe someone honestly thinks it will take them 6-12 months to sell the coin for an extra 10% but he/she gets lucky as someone comes in flush with cash wanting that specific coin and offers a nice 50% premium. Something like that. Years later, folks just look at pieces of paper and someone thinks that the dealer buyer took advantage of the client seller when that wasn't the case. Sometimes the market rewards you....sometimes it punishes you. My point was, just old fashioned LUCK could be misinterpreted as dishonesty or gouging or taking advantage of one's friends or clients....when that wasn't the case.

Done..... I think the MTB Hoad of 1983 was larger, with 49,000 total gold coins pretty well documented and possibly 2-3x that amount unverified because of lost documentation. I had forgotten that the passage in your book and Gillio's only (to my knowledge) detailing of the find was in Bower's 2004 Whitman Red Book. Hard to believe he hasn't put out anything in the 18 years since. Has Gillio ever written for coin or numismatic magazines ? Written a book ? Posted here at NGC Forums ? Has the Long Ray / Short Ray dichotomy been used other than in RWB's book ? I don't believe I have seen the split before. Not in writings, not on TPG labels, not in online price guides. Roger, have you ever met Gene Bauman, the lead MTB numismatist ?

Or not, agreed. I'm just saying it could be little things and nothing scandalous. Here's one: someone comes to him with a coin. He says he can't give him a good price, maybe $500, because he'll be lucky to sell it for $550 in 6 months to a year and he doesn't want to tie up that much money in 1 coin ($500 was a nice coin in the 1940's or 1950's). Instead....there's a bill of sale showing that the coin was sold in 2 weeks for $750. If you were the guy who sold him the coin and felt like he chiseled you out of an extra $50, how would you feel seeing that transaction for that amount of money that quickly after Kosoff's funeral ?

I'm going to re-read that section tonight.

Could be lots of reasons. Didn't want any of his old friends to see that he flipped a coin they sold to him for 5x the profit they made....selling 2 identical coins at different prices to close friends....etc...etc....etc. I'm sure there were some nefarious dealings, but it could also just be embarassing to Kosoff and/or his surviving family (esp. if they kept his business alive for a while).

Bump....anybody purchased any interesting catalogs ? I got the Thaine B. Price catalog prepared by David Akers (he opened his own numismatic shop) and it is in hardcover. I also got a softcover copy so I don't have to wear out the hardcover binding.

Where is Quintus ? I saw no TOS violation, can anybody tell us what happened ? Mods ?

My astronomy club has had numerous people from NASA who work on the JWST in recent years: http://www.rocklandastronomy.com/neaftalks.html NEAF is the premiere amateur (and professional !) astronomy show in the United States, bar none !!

I think the failure to give out details is because (1) people don't think others are interested in all the details and (2) if there were some questionable dealings with foreign actors or people who "cut corners" in our domestic institutions.....that would explain it. In the case of the 1908 Wells Fargo NM Hoard, I'd want to know the following: When RG was first contacted about the coins and how (phone, telegram, word-of-mouth). How quickly he followed it up (immediately, within days, weeks, whatever). How he was able to ascertain that the coins were the legal/lawful property of the people who had them. WHO were the people who had them ? Americans or non-Americans (all the coins are Central/South American in origin). Why the coins were moved to a Wells Fargo branch. Did they rent out space ? Did the branch manager not have a problem with it ? Where in the branch were they held ? Why not with a private security firm or someone's house ? Did they look at all/most of the coins before agreeing on price ? How did they arrive at a price (gold was ~ $400 ounce during this time I believe) ? Did the sellers want to go coin-by-coin or check each bag at a glance or did they just price them as if they were all MS65's or MS'63's or whatever ? Was a formal contract drawn up and they had a "closing" or did RG just bring a check/cash and then walked away with 20-40 bags of coins ? When did RG start to inform other dealers of the coins ? PCGS ? Was there fears of crushing the price for the 1908 NM market ? That's just what I came up with in 5 minutes. I'm sure there are lots of other questions you can all add.

Roger, while I am sure that in-depth analyses of some of those topics are gratifying to those who follow them, do you do them because YOU like those topics or because you feel OTHERS like them ? Those are very specific topics you are covering.

I wonder what you think of the Saddle Ridge Hoard then !! Yeah, I could understand not talking at first because maybe he didn't want to "crash" the market for certain conditions of the 1908 NM, or maybe the entire coin pricing structure. Has anybody here ever spoken to Gillio ? I am surprised that 25 years later he hasn't really told the story....in an article...or a book. Unless there were some questionable actions in obtaining the coins, with the passage of time, he really has no reason to not tell more details. The 19,900 coins have long been absorbed into the market. Probably the case since the early-2000's.

I guess beteen the novice and political stuff he just got worn out. Maybe some time off to re-charge his batteries will work. Hope so. Things get heated here on coins alone, we add outside interests and passions we can blow the place up. Unless the mods have a dedicated, separate site for politics, sports, current events, etc....best to leave that to other locations.

A bad marketing item and certainly other financial shenanigans take place all the time. However, I will put the private sector up against the government any day of the week. Private sector is accountable through the free market and government regulatory and legal attacks. NOBODY holds the government accountable for bad policies.

Yeah, but that was a legit hoard. Not sure I get what you are saying.

Wasn't that where Eddie Murray's character Bill Ray Valentine was stationed in Vietnam ??