GoldFinger1969

Sunday Night GC Auctions: A 1928 Saint-Gaudens Gold Double Eagle PCGS MS-66+ went for $5,232 (w/bp). A 1927 MS-62 NGC and a 1925 MS-62 NGC each went for about $2,155 (good proxies for bullion Saint pricing). A 1914 MS-63 went for $4,840. A 1913-S MS-63 CAC went for $7,425. A 1911-D/D Saint-Gaudens Gold Double Eagle Repunched Mintmark FS-501 PCGS MS-66+ CAC went for $20,251 (this is a very unique label with the "FS-501" designation which I'll have to check in RWB's book what it means). A 1909/8 Saint-Gaudens Gold Double Eagle PCGS MS-65+ went for $48,375. A 1908 Saint-Gaudens Gold Double Eagle No Motto PCGS MS-63 OGH went for $2,250. A 1907 Saint-Gaudens Gold Double Eagle MCMVII. High Relief, Wire Edge PCGS MS-62 CAC OGH went for $24,812. A 1907 MCMVII High Relief Details did NOT get any bids at the minimum of $7,500.

You're an expert, Kurt. The average person and even the novice collector has no idea that these coins only survived because they left the U.S. If you mention their melting down from 1933-37 and ask how they surived today, most would assume American dealers, collectors, and families keeping a few coins each constitute the coinage.

Take Saints. Yes, their production numbers changed as the economy, world trade, the Dawes Plan, etc....came and went. But it's fascinating -- and not very much talked about -- how so many of them survive to this day ONLY BECAUSE They were in Europe and/or South/Central America sitting in foreign bank vaults. Then folks had to find them and bring them over, navigating treacherous legal and monetary mazes. How many of today's coins are here because of one man, Paul Wittlin ? His counterparts ? It's a not well-known story.

It's Bigfoot and he's been proven to be real. Turns out he is Andre The Giant and is controlled by a super-race of aliens..... Oh wait, sorry....that was an episode of "The Six Million Dollar Man" from 1976 !!

The story of the coins is largely commerce, economics, finance, and most important, their provenance...how they SURVIVED. Sure, production and survival and usage relates to the economy, stock market, etc. But it's not as interesting as to how our valuable and limited suriviving coins made it to today.

Or you can just text me.....

When discussing bullion and inflation and things of that nature, sure. But while I like talking politics and even economics as much as the next guy, I don't find it essential or even that frequent when posting about my coins or the topics I have interest in.

Not only "more to the story"....key material facts ? Steve, you implied that NGC did you wrong and it appears you were grossly in error -- or worse, lying -- about how they treated you. Maybe you didn't know they had refunded the $$$ to you. We can't know for sure. But they clearly did NOT keep your money for ungraded coins. NGC has come on and very succintly and definitively stated what they did and it appears 100% legit and fair. You should explain what you meant and what your OP was about.

I'm fascinated by hoards. Have done lots of reading and research on Saint-Gaudens Double Eagle hoards, not as much on earlier Liberty DE hoards which would cover the Civil War.

Biggest fraud since Cosmo Kramer ate that hot dog at the Bijou that was there from the Silent Era.

I read that he was a PITA with letting individuals or dealers bring back gold coins from ovrseas within the 1933 EO limits. I wonder how Paul Wittlin and his buyers (Paramount, Superior, etc.) as well as other dealers handled the guy.

Should have transfered Leland Howard.....

I never heard of that but then again I never heard of creating an account for that person. But your response seems perfectly harmless and I don't know if maybe one of the Mods there who is a bit less "flexible" though you were doing it to attack the person and/or violate the No 2 Accounts rule. Since you weren't planning on using the account and since the reason for creating it was clear if not a bit off-beat, I would really think it might just be given a "Don't Do It Again" type warning. Most of the Mods I have interacted with have been very reasonable and fair. I don't know who you intereacted with but maybe if they get word of WHY you did that they might reconsider. I know that folks who had login problems a while back may have created new accounts merely to email them and the Mods were unaware of the login problems and just saw the 2nd Account thing and gave a ban and/or ignored it. They must be sticklers for the No 2nd Account thing.

BTW, that auction catalog has a nice glossy front-and-back cover. It was $50 originally, I picked it up for about $12 in very good condition.

Heritage and Great Collections are better. I would be wary of Ebay listings, even sold items, unless there was active bidding.

Which is why the TPGs are a MUST IMO unless we're all going to be good/expert graders like in the 1950's and 1960's and 1970's....which many of us can't be or don't have the time to pursue.

Have they developed....or are developing....GPS tracking within the holder that only you can track from a smartphone if it is a pricey coin ? THAT might be worth getting on some 5-figure coins.

Phillip H. Morse Collection: Got the Platinum Night November 2005 Heritage catalog of his collection of Indian Head Eagles and Saint-Gaudens Double Eagles which was the basis for the Morse coinage book which became the basis for RWB's Duckor-Morse Saints Book. Not as much useful information as the 2012 Duckor catalog, but I actually think the photos are better (better light angling, IMO) and it was not that expensive a catalog so I pounced.

It's tough to model a supply and demand curve. But we know that the supply of MS-66's and MS-67's went up over 30-fold after the Wells Fargo Hoard. If we go by Winter's Guestimate of Saint buyers -- 500 Registry Players, 25,000 Type Players, the rest retail investors -- then the Registry guys suddenly had MS68's (and 69's) take up 25% of their demand which was previously limited to MS-67's (there were no MS-68's I believe before the WF Hoard). The rest were the cream of the MS-67's. But the Type Players who previously had to settle for MS-64's, 65's, and 66's suddenly had MS-67's (about 1,500 - 2,000, ex-double counts). So before Wells Fargo, 1908 NM's were like the other commons more-or-less in the MS-66 to 68 grades. The influx in the higher grades for those who wanted them -- others still wanted a slightly-cheaper MS-64 or 65 rather than a much-cheaper MS-66 or 67 -- made them much more affordable.

That seems a bit odd....I know you'd have a good enough number of collectors there from all the manufacturing businesses, but you could also say that of Upstate New York or Western PA. I also would think just based on the finance-money connection, that you'd have alot more coin/bill collectors in Boston/NYC/Philly.

I know....it's just strange to see it basically 1/2 off or more from the other "common" dates which just aren't as common in that grade. Basically, 1908 NM's trade 1 grade higher for the same $$$. You get your money's worth for sure.

Sunday Night GC Auctions: A 1908 NM MS66+ went for $3,825 (w/bp). A 1908 NM MS64 went for $2,280. A 1907 MCMVII High Relief Flat Edge MS-63 went for $25,694. A 1907 MCMVII High Relief Wire Edge MS-64 went for $36,844. Still can't believe you can get a Super Gem MS67 1908 NM for under $6,000.

I think they got like 7% or so. I didn't follow the court case(s), but I am sure it's different than if a stolen or lost item suddenly turns up. In this case, the gold was found but big $$$ were expended in bringing it up. And the insurance company didn't foot that bill.

You would think something like that would have been cleared up right away. I mean, if there were 7x as much gold found it'd be pretty hard to hide it, right ? Of course, TT didn't help himself with going into hiding and evading the courts.

That makes more sense. 21 tons would have been ALOT back in the 1850's for 1 ship to carry, tonnage-wise. Also would be almost $15 MM in gold.