GoldFinger1969

I think these ridges are MICROSCOPIC (at least on Saints) and you'd need alot more power than 30x to see them.....probably in the 1,000 - 5,000x range.

Well, EC and his high-end Saints is someone who makes up for the trolls.

That reminds me of a famous "The Odd Couple" episode where Felix and Oscar go partners in a Greyhound race dog. But the dog is washed up, though Felix is convinced he can turn him into a winner by entering him into the dog racing circuit: Felix: "That dog loves to race....and I'm gonna race him !!" Oscar: "And I bet you beat him !!"

QUINTUS !!! Welcome back !! Please check out Pages 56-57 for our friend "Elite Collection"..... very interesting posts.

The companies don't dislose lots of their information, but based on what CU told shareholders when it was a public company we know (1) profit margins were mediocre at best (2) the firms didn't make anywhere NEAR $1 billion dollars (even Dr. Evil agrees ! ).

There's backlogs right now. Baseball card graders are in short supply; no more submittances as of a few months ago. It's not as bad with coins, but when you consider the improvements in the tamper-proof slabs....the designs of the holders....the nice labels.....and the grade.....I think most think they are getting their money's worth. Maybe on cheaper coins it's not something you consider cost-effective. To each his own. I'm happy to pay for a holder and grading on any of my $150 moderns or my modern/pre-1933 gold coins.

OK, we get it....you don't think the fees for grading are worth the $$$. Then just don't pay it. The rest of us consider grading fees the price of admission to a hobby that without it would become The Wild, Wild West. And like I said....there are material and professional costs involved in getting a coin holdered. How would YOU like to be told to provide your services or goods that you make a living on at 25% or 50% of your normal rate ?

If I had a very valuable coin....and they spent more than 20 seconds on it....maybe 45-90 seconds....yeah, I'd be OK paying that. My uncle had a painting that cost about $25,000. Had an expert come in to verify authenticity and confirm the value for insurance purposes. Drove 20 minutes round-trip...spent 5 minutes in my uncle's living room with the picture. Final Bill: $750.

Pricing is set at the margin. Global supply disruptions have put an end to just-in-time inventory. You have a secure holder....tamper-proof case....nice label.....grade. It takes probably 30-60 minutes to process and produce ALL the product and information from the time they get your coin. They're not doing it for $10. This isn't 1963.

You checked the price of any petroleum or plastics-related product lately ? You're not in 2019 anymore. And yes I know it usually costs (way) more than $10...but for that you get a nice holder....certification and grade....listed in the registry/archives for that TPG.....etc. You have quality professionals (some of whom are on these forums) spending their valuable time on your coin. They're not a charity, they have to earn a living. Maybe on a lower-priced coin the $$$ are a nuisance to you. For myself, usually buying nice silver or gold coins ranging from $150 - $2,500.....I'm happy to pay an extra $30-$50 or whatever it costs for the convenience, protection, and grade on the holder. Light-years better than having a raw coin in a velvet pouch.

I haven't bought a coin book in a while...but I have bought some famous auction catalogs and others that had lots of sales of Saint-Gaudens Double Eagles, my main focus. I've probably bought 4 or 5 auction catalogs the last year or so, including the Menjou 1950 sale. Price, Morse, Duckor -- all Saint heavy collections -- also purchased. Last book I bought was 2 years ago, RWB's Saint-Gaudens DE book. Plan on re-reading it when I can read it in 2-3 weeks or so.

Roger, why would some dies produce great luster (1923-D) and others lousy luster (1908 NM) ? You would think that the striking and impact on the crystalline structure/ridges would be pretty much the same each year. Unless the metal that determines the crystalline structure changed over the years, wouldn't you think luster would be pretty stable year-to-year ? Maybe 20 years later, striking technology improves and dies act differently but even then I would think there's not much difference in the die or the equipment doing the striking. I think of the 1908-S (one of the most beautiful coins) vs. the 1908 NM -- same time period, totally different luster appearances.

The slab itself -- without any grading -- is probably worth $10. Some of these larger ones for 2 ounce and 5 ounce and 10 ounce coins can be pricey. I've never submitted but I find, even where actual grading might be unnecessary (i.e., a modern proof gold coin) that it's convenient...makes it easy to handle....makes giving it as a gift or showing it to friends much easier than handing them a raw coin....etc. Definitely worth the $$$ spent getting it graded and in a nice protective holder. Some of the holders lay the coin out nicely and have nice labels, too.

You mean the debate on luster ?

I'm not finding one that matches up with your slab, JF. I don't want to say it's a counterfeit because that would likely be an overreaction. But the listings here do not match up with yours. The black lined bars are usually BELOW the number. But they're showing holders for a Saint-Gaudens Double Eagle so maybe for small denomination coins it was different. https://www.ngccoin.com/about/evolution-of-ngc-holder/ I'm sure Dave @ NGC or another veteran can clear it up.

Die failure, die collapse.....right ?

So you are saying that metal flow is a factor/contributor to luster besides the microscopic "ridges" outlined in your book ?

Other websites/posters have focused on metal flows as the cause of luster.

There's always the RWB Saints Book Thread !!

I wouldn't doubt you, CB. I just know I've read lots of articles where a bunch of "experts" were showed a coin (maybe it was a Saint, I can't remember) and the grades were ALL OVER the place.

Let me elaborate further. While I understand that the population drops off tremendously between 64 and 65 and thus the 64+ is worth a nice jump from 64....it's just that to grade a coin that "fine" seems very difficult considering that many times the graders are off by 1 or even 2 grades. Now, in the case of the 1920 there are very few in the higher grades so maybe it's easy to tell a 64+ from a 64. It just struck me as a bit unusual and stuck out with other condition rarities where you need to go up 1 whole grade to see the inflection.

10% is probably too high for most people. However, if a person has the investment cash flows and diversifies the remaining 90%, it's not reckless for most people.

JA is notoriously very tough on gold coins/Saints. Probably because the standards got so lax in the late-1990's/early-2000's from the TPGs. I think I read somewhere that no 1908 No Motto Saint has ever gotten a CAC sticker. Or maybe it's the Wells Fargo bunch (though I though I had seen a few over the years).

Just curious...the inflection on the 1920 Saint seems to come with the "+" designation which is very spurious as it's basically a half-point equivalent in the minds of many. Usually, you need a full 1-grade jump to see a big jump like the prices I quoted above. Any other Saints (or other coins) have a "+" as the inflection point ?

A 1920 MS64+ CAC went for $23,400 a few weeks ago. Another one without CAC sold for $18,000 a few months ago. MS64's were going for about $4,000 give-or-take the last 2 years. 20-35% more for CAC. Has this coin gone up a bunch in recent months ? I'd be suprised if it had, unless a couple of well-heeled buyers needed condition rarities of the coin.