GoldFinger1969

That worked ...and you ARE right....there were some 1908 No Motto Wells Fargo CACs in some HA sales. That post I copied from CU/PCGS may have been from 2016-18 when very few or maybe no 1908 WF NM's had yet gotten CAC approval. CAC now has Forums, I'll scan and see if they have anything on this. Gonna try and research how many 1908 NM's and 1908 WF NM's (if the data exists) have gotten CACed.

UPDATE: Been a month since the operation....doing MUCH BETTER. Sutures out...chest healing...getting stronger. Can drive in another week or so, OK to be in passenger seat with it angled back and pushed back so I don't take the full brunt of any airbag deployment. Most importantly, for some reason they had me on Pepcid 2x daily to prevent stomach problems when I wasn't eating right after the surgery. They STILL kept me on it 3 weeks later when I've been home a few weeks eating food with all my medicines. Once I dropped it a week ago, my stomach/appetite seemed to have bounced back nicely. Wish they had done it 3 weeks earlier, no need to keep taking it once I was eating food. Again....if somebody you know feels winded, side/chest pains, difficulty going up stairs or walking inclines.....but NO blockage (>70%) that a stent can solve....mention HOCM/HCM to your doctor/cardiologist.

Bleep that, when I'm not "Goldfinger" my moniker is usually "CorvetteKid" so have that Fairy Godmother drop the car off to ME !!!!!!!!

Good to know, I'll keep them in mind for when I win MegaMillions or PowerBall.

That's OK, if I'm wrong, I'm wrong. I think I relied on a dated CU/PCGS post that I reprinted in the WF Hoard Thread...at that time, apparently, CAC/JA had NOT stickered any WF Hoard coins or so few that it was still believable that the absolute number was zero. I'm going over your link from HA, Mark, and will scout for a WF Hoard CAC. Even with their good interface, I sometimes have trouble narrowing the search to a reasonable list. Getting better, though.

What grade did that coin get, Alex ? Nice-looking coin.

Can anybody confirm it it is still true that CAC/JA have never stickered ANY 1908 NM from the WF Hoard ? They may have stickered the older, non-WF 1908 NMs. Want to know about the 1908 NMs from WF. I don't think this is on the CAC website.

A very short but informative article from the Queens Chronicle on Ernest Kehr, if you are interested: https://www.qchron.com/qboro/i_have_often_walked/ernest-kehr-placed-his-stamp-on-queens-collecting/article_734fff66-42e0-5ce5-89d3-c623be907a26.html He was the personal stamp advisor to Cardinal Spellman !!

Back To Prices: A few auctions end tonight on GC....a pair of MCMVII HRs Flat Edges seeing active bidding but a Wire Edge MS-65 seeing no bids @ $45,000. Some other interesting Saints for sale....I'll report back. And I can't believe this....it's a Silver Commemorative tied to Saint-Gaudens.....7 days left and already over $200...wow. https://www.greatcollections.com/Coin/1165870/National-Park-Foundation-Saint-Gaudens-Commemorative-Double-Eagle-Indian-Ultra-High-Relief-Silver-1-oz-Private-Issue-Struck-2017-NGC-Proof-70-UC-Mercanti-Signed-Label I got one for about $100 only a year or so ago.

Aside from Tom Terrific -- #41, The Franchise -- most of those I never saw but have read about. A few (Soupy Sales) I vaguely remember from "Wonderama" or the early-1970's.

What I find curious is that CAC is apparently busier today than ever....I would have thought they got most of the low-hanging fruit the first few years and business would slowly dwindle as most of the coins that could get the CAC sticker already got them. Guess not.......

Me....I think they are both fun.

You bought early and you bought SMART because I can't come up with any average scenario where PM's -- even going back to 1970 -- beat stocks with dividend compounding. Now, a few years earlier than 50 years ago can knock the prices down for PMs or numismatic coins a ton....but MOST of that outperformance HAD to have been in the 1970's which simply hasn't been replicated. Gold and other PMs have had nice rides but that was AFTER big declines. In the 1970's, we had a 20-fold rise in silver and gold after they had been flat for decades (price-controlled, for sure). The PCGS U.S. Coin Index is light-years behind it's all-time highs: Zad, I'm not as old as you. I didn't get those super-low prices of the early-1970's...I was too busy watching Saturday morning cartoons !!

As a CFA and CFP, I would NEVER include someone's coin or art or car collections as part of their investment portfolio. Not even real estate. Extra assets in case of difficulty, sure. But not investments suitable for an investment portfolio: no dividends or income paid....not liquid....highly volatile. You're either very lucky or very smart -- or both. Going back a bit over 40 years gets you into the rise of the 1970's but then you had DECADES of flattish returns. And U.S. stocks the last 10-12 years were in a bear market until Covid-19 and whether it's a bull market or a bear market rally it's too early to tell. Did you SHORT coin prices to make those returns ? You are obviously like the daytrader who makes $$$ going in-and-out....one of the 1% who actually makes $$$ doing it. Most fail. Ditto coins, especially U.S. coins the last few years/decades. Check out the PCGS U.S. Coin Index...still probably down 50% from decades ago.

There will be disagreements. Most of those disputes on gold/Saints or small denomination coins ? The one "discrepancy" that folks say about JA/CAC is that he is much tougher on gold/Saints than other coins. Of course, the coins are bigger, too. Not sure if it still is true, but at one time I read that JA/CAC had never stickered a single coin from the Wells Fargo Saint-Gaudens Hoard.

In fairness, it's a bit different because CAC/JA is acting like a market maker and being willing to buy the coins they sticker, much like a specialist on the NYSE or a market maker is the Buyer Of Last Resort to keep the stock price orderly.

I just think there are FEWER collectors who are sure of their grading skills....they like seeing CAC (especially for coins that cost $$$) because it confirms the underlying grade and then some.....it's like buying a warranty for a car.

Dividends: steady stream of income, just like on common stocks or even income from bonds. Coins and PMs don't pay them.

At the high-end, you have price-insensitive buyers with hundreds of millions or even billions who will pay a 300% premium for a CAC coin at the high-end even if "the market" would normally say the premium should only be 50% or 100% or even 200%. If you are putting together a world-class collection and are worth 9 or 10 figures, you don't care about a few hundred thousand dollars, let alone tens of thousands of dollars. I know I wouldn't.

People remember the past. The 1970's saw people make so much $$$ that the newsletter writers and others who talked PMs and coins were able to keep on selling subscriptions for another 20 years despite LOUSY performance. Gold going up 20-fold....silver going up 30-fold.....gas lines...inflation....it was 10 years of that, and for many, it stuck in their brains (but maybe not Jerome Powell ? Inside joke.....). Imagine making the playoffs in your 3rd year as coach and manager and then your team is last or next-to-last every year going forward....and you stay on as coach/mgr. for another 15-20 years. You get 1 or 2 years of bad play if you have a good year...MAYBE 2-3 years if you win the World Series or Super Bowl....nobody gets another 15-20 years without putting up some winning numbers. Maybe ancients or some other niche will generate double-digit returns, I dunno. I think it's best to keep coin collecting a hobby...ignore the financial results of what you put into it..... and look to the financial markets for your investment returns.

1933 Saint & Ernest Kehr EC, besides reading some of the in-depth coverage of the trial from CoinWeek, I was wondering if you had read the stuff on the 1933 in Roger's book ? What about the original Stacks 2002 auction catalog (David Tripp's piece) on the 1933 when Weitzman won the coin ? I was re-reading the 1933 section in RWB's book....one curious/funny thing that threw me (a little)....maybe it's because the 1st name sounds like it should be for an older person (like my grandfather, also named "Ernest" ) but I just assumed that Ernest A. Kehr, the guy who worked for The New York Herald Tribune, was some older coin/stamp collector now writing about them and was probably in his 50's or 60's (if not older). Actually, he was only 33 years old when he got involved in the 1944 dustup involving the sales of the 1933 Saints. It also appears his column was syndicated, not exclusive to the NYHT. He was on the radio alot....and really promoted stamp collecting (where it appears he spent most of his time/efforts). Wikepedia says he did 2,000 shows on radio AND TV (but I bet they don't have copies) promoting stamp/coin collecting. He died in NYC (where he lived) in 1986 aged 75.

Dave, things get slow at times and this SS Republic and the prospect of an influx of thousands or tens of thousands of Saint seemed to energize the thread (I never heard or read about it, even with the Saint-Gaudens possibility). Maybe the SS Republic should have had its own thread but a member posted it here (I had no objection and I created this thread) and we went a few pages on it. No harm...no foul. I think it's mostly played out so if folks have questions or comments (RWB, CatBath, myself, and Alex seem to be the ones most active here) on Saints in general or the book specifically......happy to discuss Saints/The Book. If anything material on the SS Republic hits in coming weeks or months (years ?), I'll create a dedicated thread unless someone beats me to it.

But I would assume that human hands -- unprotected -- would transmit dirt/oils/residue to the coin and start to degrade luster, finish, etc.

Well...since we don't really care about that for modern coins...and since we can't really tell with classics like pre-1933 gold if they were ever in a pocket, handled with human fingers, in a velvet pouch, etc....I'm not sure it's that critical. It's a good question, as Mint State implies you can get dinged or gouged so long as you never circulated....but if you have a pristine, near-flawless MS coin and then you HANDLE IT....it goes to AU...even though it still may look light-years better than the MS coin. It's one of the glitches in the coin rading system we have to live with. Still better than pre-1986 without TPGs, IMO, by far.

I wonder if anybody here or over at PCGS/CU is an investor in that shipwreck salvage.