GoldFinger1969

How do you know they were bought by Heritage ?

I think even the non-Saint posts in this thread have valuable information. That was my point to Dave. Sure, you don't want it to go on for pages-and-pages....but that shipwreck thing WAS interesting. As I said, I never heard of it. Captain's hoard story above is unreal. Someone came in with the Fab Five !!!

Unfortunately, he and most of those other dealers and their overseas contacts appear to have died out. I believe Akers is one of the last with ties to them (he joined Paramount when Wittlin was still sending back the coins in the 1970's) and even he died about 10 years ago.

Wow, what a story, CH. I haven't yet gotten that hoard book but intend to. Enjoy having read a bunch of your posts over ATS on Saints and other stuff. Keep posting here !

Understood.....let's assume that the population of Europe/EU in the 1940's and 1950's was about 150 million. So the Top 1% is 1.5 million.....and even the Top 1% of 1% (which is a pretty high income/net worth today and probably was back then) is 15,000 people. So you EASILY could have 15,000 - 1,500,000 people/families (maybe more, poor and middle-class people held gold, too ) who wanted to hold gold. Some of them held U.S. coins....some of those were Double Eagles.....some/most of those were Saints and maybe Liberty's. Voila....your European hoards brought back by Wittlin and others !! David Akers said that Wittlin and others were STILL sending back coins regularly that they were uncovering as late as the early-1970's.

But they are now private......Mets owner Steve Cohen and a private venture company, I believe. That's the bad thing...no more publicly released information on coins, grading volumes, sports memorabilia, and NFTs and like that. But I suspect an IPO of part or all of the company within 18-24 months.

(1) Then why were so many American gold coins (including DEs) found in those mines ? (2) How were Paul Wittlin etc. al all finding those stray coins in all those SDBs with their "contacts ?" Doesn't make sense.

But the history of the Saints and other gold coins from guys like Paul Wittlin is that they were in SDBs held by individuals not just the bank themselves. I'm sure the banks had some....but it appears some/most were held by individuals. I don't think a bank would just hold a few or a few dozen...not worth the time and expense and accounting. But for a person of modest to upper-income means....a few coins or a few dozen in a SDB were great insurance. Same here in the U.S.

Will do, thanks. Are these coins smaller width-wise than a DE...but thicker ? If they were $5 coins, then I guess overall they are smaller by 75%. Since I thought most of these coins were saved/hoarded in Europe and in South/Central America (rather than held in pockets to be spent)....I didn't think the little extra width made a difference. They're certainly not thick coins, that's for sure.

What was the ratio backing Gold Certificates again.....60% ?

True....but Europeans, coming off numerous wars (including WW I)...had a citizenry that much preferred to hold gold coins relative to Americans. Look at Germany during the Weimar Inflation. Not sure how you quantify it but the fact that SDBs still showed coins decades later shows that many European citizens wanted to hold American gold coins in the 1920's and 1930's.

I think you both are saying the same thing.....a generally "common" coin in "exceptional quality and/or beauty"....is more likelty to be a condition rarity or other exceptional coin.

CAC message forums.

Right, but a stronger correlation to international trade, that's what me and CatBath were noting. I agree with your statement here and Dave's statement that their circulation had little to do with the domestic economy. As trade increased, you were more likely to ship DEs overseas -- which would then avoid melting. That was my point.

I meant it was overlooked by many history books and folks who read about the time period. I didn't really learn about it until I read Milton Friedman/Anna Schwartz "A Monetary History Of The United States" like 20 years ago.

You had a severe economic contraction in the U.S. in 1920-21. It gets overlooked between WWI, The Roaring Twenties, and The Depression. You are right about Great Britain. They kept the pound too high and it retarded economic growth until they finally cut the cord in 1931.

Interesting Comments from JA: "I would guess that 10-20% of CAC'd XF 40 coins would also sticker as a 45. In order for a CAC'd XF 40 coin to be awarded a gold sticker , it would have to have claims to AU-50... basically a “48” grade or better. If I had it my way , there would only be one grade for VG, one for Fine , maybe 2 or 3 for VF and , one for XF. Simplifying and eliminating grades would result in better consistency for collectors as well as grading services."

Is that legit ? I guess they would have been prepared by making one although as the War deepened maybe they knew they'd not be minting DEs. Somewhere in the bowels of the (old) Philly Mint ?

Good point....also, SanFran/Denver vs. Philly depending on if Asian vs. European trade was going to dominate. I guess South & Central America could draw Double Eagles from either set of mints. Your list really shows the lack of demand for DEs right after WW I. A mini-depression in 1920-21 didn't help.

You have to make a decision. If I know a coin RARELY comes up for sale -- and the one on HA is really really pristine-looking -- then sometimes you swallow hard and pay up. You probably kick yourself more if you pass and never find a coin as nice....rather than pay up and at least you got your Dream Coin even if you paid up for it. Coins that are always available you can afford to wait for your price.

Maybe from time-to-time or years (decades) ago....but I doubt you could do that with a popular series today with the internet. Too much competition and knowledge and transparency.

Trade & Survivorship: One of the interesting trends you notice reading Roger's book is that survivorship is inextricably linked to international trade (mintage also matters, but not as much as you might think). In years where international trade takes off, you have more gold shipped overseas, especially to South/Central American and Europe. These coins were held by individuals, institutions, and SDBs. But they escaped the gold melting of the 1930's. Where trade dried up, you kept more of your domestic gold production and less was shipped overseas. Of course, the extreme case was during WW I when there was virtually no trade and from 1917-1919 no Double Eagles were minted. Another clear connection is the small numbers of the "Fab Fives" (1928-32 Saints) that were shipped overseas following the stock market crash and the onset of the Great Depression, Smoot-Hawley trade barriers, global currency debasements, etc. The Roarin' Twenties saw the U.S. escape the recession of 1920-21 and the rest of the world escape the carnage of WW I so economic activity was good.....plenty of SG Double Eagles sent overseas or south of the border and these issues remain very plentiful with a couple of exceptions. The correlation isn't perfect as it doesn't hold as much for earlier years (i.e., 1907-1908 during The Panic of 1907). But international trade increased alot more in 20 years after WW I for a number of reasons (early globalization, rebuilding of Europe, Dawes Plan, etc.).

I wish the buyers premium at times were a bit lower.....and the miscellaneous fees/taxes can drive up the price, esp. on lower-priced stuff.....but the ease and simplicity of using HA, GC, etc......is wonderful. Also kudos to HA for making their archives available and putting out nice auction catalogs with great information.

I think I have a minor flutter or something but not a concern in and of itself. I am taking something for AF right now since it follows the myectomy. Doubt I am on it for the rest of my life or any long period of time but who knows.

I think I've read some stuff about that here and on other forums....might also have been a documentary on it somewhere on cable TV.