GoldFinger1969

Welcome....not sure why you are selling "retirement gold" (what kind ? Modern bullion or pre-1933 ?) and putting it into more speculative U.S. Small Coins unless you are OK financially and just want to pursue your love for particular coins. Have you checked out GC and HA for quality coins ?

As Roger has stated numerous times....grading is an art not a science....a fluid game with ranges....not a definitive pronoucement. We are SO MUCH BETTER off than 40 years ago or 60 years ago that to worry about this-or-that is meaningless, IMO. Of course we have excesses and glitches and anomalies and inconsistencies....but it is NOTHING compared to what was unfair decades ago.

I believe he worked/helped found PCGS....then helped found NGC.....so he has graded in the past raw coins.

Cancelled flights ? If the airlines can't do that, or overbook, then the price will go up across the board. Airlines are a very unique industry, not affected by the normal supply/demand problems.

Aren't U.S. Small Coins post-1933 (maybe even a bit earlier) also very low in the high-end populations ? I guess most circulated even though mintages were sometimes billions ?

Based on the number of Saints at LCS, Coin Shows, and online auction, I think it's 500 - 1,000. Now...I do NOT think they are all chasing the high-end...many might even be AU-58 or MS-63 buyers for coins that look nice. A guy making $500,000 a year with a net worth of $5 MM can probably afford a $50,000 MCMVII High Relief MS-65.....but he also may be happy with an AU-58 or MS-63 and save 30-70%. The guy making a few million with a net worth of $30 MM is probably more price-insensitive. Keep in mind that many coin collectors skew OLDER and they are at peak earning and net worth numbers relative to younger collectors -- or the same collector 20 or 30 or 40 years earlier. Family obligations, mortage -- they all disappear once you are past 60 more or less. More $$$ to spend on your hobby. Most people, unless really dedicated to coin collecting, have enough trouble just saving for retirement.

And today's MIRROR PROOFS which have been around for decades....which of the 3 methods are they closest to ?

I like NGC's modern labels. They're colorful and sometimes relevant to the coin in the holder.

Is he saying PCGS = California and NGC = Florida ? I'm confused. If it is the same TPG in both states and he's saying there's that discrepancy, that's unreal. Still hard to believe even 2 separate TPGs could have that dichotomy.

What about your hatred for gold ?

I think you are correct....CAC ignores the "+" designation. But wouldn't a 66+CAC be at least as good as a 66 CAC for a (lucky) upgrade to MS-67 ? Happens alot for non-plus coins so I would think the "+" couldn't hurt. True, but the high bullion content and the large number of fans of the Double Eagle series imply much higher demand for the coin at all grades especially top-condition coins, right ? And the % jump from lower grades might be LOWER for Saints/Liberty DEs than what you see for U.S. Small Coin series (I'm not familiar with their price gradient so I'm speculating). Agreed.

What about the counts for the 66-plusses ? Those aren't HUGE pops....in other words, they are somewhat rare in top condition. Keep in mind that you have about 500 serious collectors (maybe more) who want top or near-top condition coins where they can afford it (and these people generally have the $$$).....throw in a minority of the 25,000 Type Collectors who buy upscale and that explains the prices for what might appear to be a "plentiful" coin in the condition. The Total Populations for these coins are of course much larger. Hence why even in top condition these coins are less than an MCMVII which has a total production of just over 12,000 and 8,000 survivors today (estimated).

Outside of recent specially produced UHR and HR coins, I don't recall any other U.S. or foreign coins in the last 100 years that are HR with that special design to the rim. Maybe some foreign coin I am not familiar with.

You mean Saints or coins in general ? What exactly do you mean by "sharpest knife-like rims"....you mean no dings or dents on the rim ? Or are you talking the MCMVII where the fields rise up sharply to the rim ?

But even then, even the highest-graded coins can't esacape the mid-single digits returns over most time periods. Look at the 1933 Double Eagle and the 1908-S Norweb Saint (which David Akers said might be the most attractive of any Saint).

Sunday GC Saint-Gaudens Results (final bids rounded; all TPGs PCGS unless listed NGC): 1928 MS-66 OGH CAC.....$5,700 1928 MS-66.......................$4,000 1928 MS-66+ CAC............$8,600 1927 MS-66.......................$3,400 1927 MS-66+ CAC............$7,300 1924 MS-66.......................$3,500 (3 sold basically identically) 1924 MS-66+ CAC NGC did not get any bids at the asking price of $7,000 w/bp. 1924 MS-66+ CAC PCGS also got no bids at about $6,800 1924 MS-66 CAC...............$5,200 1924 MS-66 CAC...............$5,900 HALF DOME COLLECT 1923-D MS-66 NGC ..........NO BIDS @ $6,800 1908 NM MS-66 NGC........$3,400

Yes, but as you know, the coin market has had some doozies in the last 42 years.

Nobody on these Forums should be relying on YouTube when you have this place for information and advice. And if we don't have an answer -- unlikely -- we can at least direct you somewhere that does.

Keep in mind....even though a long holding period can help you make $$$ especially if the purchase period was in a low-price time....as you extend the time period without any dividends/income coming from the coins...the Total Return starts to decline over time. That is why those ridiculously cheap Saint-Gaudens DE prices didn't generate such spectacular returns to the present. After a great run caused by scarcity value (small coins) or removal of artificial price controls (gold)....many coins went up-and-down for decades after 1980. That was the case with the Saints after a 50-year run of rising prices up to 1980. If you purchased some of those coins in the 1930's or 1940s (or even later !) but cashed out around 1980 (admittedly a peak after a golden decade)....your return was closer to 18% a year on some of those ultra-rare Saints.

Great post, CB !!

Lots of MS-66 Saints up for auction tonight with active bidding over at GC.........

I own them as gold/silver bullion substitutes. Modest premiums paid, but sometimes I paid up for a PF70 and paid well over the bullion content. The Saint-Gaudens silver commemoratives, for instance.

Thanks.....excellent luster on the coin, showed it to some vets at FUN 2020 and they liked it, too. Looked at some 66+ and CAC coins but the price jump was $1,000 or more.

Unless you live in Alaska....

Do NOT look at them as an investment. This is a hobby. You should look at the premiums to underlying metal content in historical context. They are in fair value right now I would say -- not cheap, not expensive.