GoldFinger1969

Sure seems like it.....yet that guy with legal claim to the haul apparently still believes and is raising $$$. Maybe something comes of it, who knows. The higher gold price today vs. most of the last 35 years makes it a now-or-never thing, IMO.

Kurt = William Jennings Bryan.

Give an assist to CatBath who first posted about this. I had never heard about it. As we've seen above.....there's lots of questions if this ship had the listed gold on it ...and even if that answer is YES.....if it is still salvageable. Still....a fascinating story. I wonder if I can see the History Channel special on YouTube or something. IF the gold was actually on the ship....and IF it hasn't been strewn on the ocean floor....and IF it's all still on the ship in some accessible locations. Lotta "ifs." Hasn't been a press release since last Fall. If anything is gonna happen, we should see it soon. Maybe Elon Musk can get the gold.

As Chevy Chase once said in a SNL Debate circa 1976...."It was my understanding that there would be no math in this thread." Yeah, and it appears the ship may have been moved many nautical miles. If that happened....if bags or individual coins spilled out at that time over the ocean floor......fuhgeddaboutit.

RWB can correct me...but a bag of 250 DE coins is 250 ounces....15.6 pounds per bag......5 tons is 10,000 pounds.....about 640 bags. I'm assuming 16 oz. = 1 pound.

Bottom line, this ship's been out there a long time and nothing of substance has come up....yet. FWIW, I believe 5 tons of DOUBLE Eagles (not Eagles as in the article) is 160,000 coins.

It could.....you may have to figure that some of the coins are only worth bullion value. Now, I would think these early-1900's coins are worth numimsatic premiums, but maybe not. For sure, a few thousand more coins (if not more) with an added $3,000/oz. floor would change the economics. I think the problem here is not the value of the coins on a bullion or numismatic basis, but exactly how many there are on the ship and where on the ship are they.

It's why JA and others say there won't be any more salvage on the SSCA. There are coins there for sure -- but not enough to justify a complete operation with all the equipment. Maybe a billionaire coin collector who doesn't mind losing millions would bring them up, I don't know.

Yes, that's what I think, too. Would also explain why they have had trouble raising $$$. Still....there may be SOME gold/DEs there.....hopefully, it's big enough to justify a salvage operation. And what's with all these ships colliding/going down off the cost of Nantucket ? Even on "Seinfeld" you had "The Andrea Doria" episode where Kramer tells us that The Stockholm went down off Nantucket with most surviving, much to George Costanza's chagrin.

"The second, a much more intriguing $25 million shipment comprised of double-eagles, mint-state twenty-dollar gold pieces, 45 tons of gold coins, the proceeds from Tsarist Russia’s sale of its January 22, 1909 Bonds on Wall Street." https://www.einnews.com/pr_news/541914226/lords-of-fortune-llc-to-recover-famous-treasure-aboard-shipwreck-rms-republic-lost-in-1909 Not sure what is 100% fact and what is conjecture, admittedly.

The Russian Government apparently floated a $25 MM bond in New York shortly before this ship sailed. And that bond helped collateralize the shipment (loan) of the gold/DEs that were on the ship. But a bond floated on the NYSE isn't proof that the DEs in the quantity estimated were on the ship.

Yes, the numbers seem to be somewhat in flux here. That's why this thing has taken 35 years and the coins are still in the ocean whereas with the SSCA they managed to get them within 10-15 years or so. They need CERTAINTY that a given number of Double Eagles -- of whatever date -- were on that ship. If they assume....and then there's 1/10th or 1/20th that number -- they're screwed. Now, they can afford a haircut from their estimate of 45 tons of gold (I think SSCA had 15 tons) and still have a good amount of DEs worth saving. We'll see.....

The 1909 is much much rarer than the 1909-S. From RWB's book: Total Estimated Survivors: 3,500 vs. 12,400 MS-65 & Above: 25 vs. 502 I didn't track it at the time, but my understanding from QDB's book and some articles is that when the 1857-S was found it depressed the high prices somewhat. However, a restored 1857-S from the SSCA usually sold at a discount to a non-restored original 1857-S which was super-rare before the shipwreck find. A partially offsetting factor was that the market for the coin expanded as it was now available/affordable to a large population who couldn't buy one before 2000. If any 1857-S or Liberty DE experts here remember how the pricing was affected in more detail, please chime in.

EC, very generous of you to allow the coin to be displayed. Nice job ! Still can't believe 445,543 were struck and only 1 survived. Ridiculous.....

I think they have all the coins they are going to get from the SSCA. There isn't enough gold/coins left to make a salvage financially viable according to folks like JA. That's why the SS Republic thing is a bit strange. The amount of gold and the current price certainly make it worthwhile (even decades ago)....but without knowing exactly where the gold is on the ship or if it has moved/spilled, you can't estimate costs. Plus, I don't think they are as certain that the gold IS there on the ship compared with the SSCA. That's how I read it.

What do you collect ? How long have you been collecting ? Interest in other coins (i.e, Saints or Morgans) that maybe you don't yet own ?

From various web sources: A Sky News documentary says the coins are 1909 Saints. Says the value could be $3 billion, but that assumes they are treated as modern 1909's worth $12,000 - $40,000 in MS64/65 condition. These documentaries rarely talk to numismatic experts on pricing but if the coins WERE newly minted and IF RESTORABLE....they could be marketed at MS-64's or 65's. Here's the salvage company's website, looks like they are still trying to raise $$$: https://lordsoffortune.com/catalog/ I missed History Channel's 2016 special, BILLION DOLLAR WRECK... https://www.einnews.com/pr_news/541914226/lords-of-fortune-llc-to-recover-famous-treasure-aboard-shipwreck-rms-republic-lost-in-1909 "As stated in its Offering Memorandum, the Company intends to use the proceeds from this Offering, together with additional financing being sourced, for its recovery of two cargoes, the first known to be aboard RMS Republic, an $800,000 1909 face value US Navy coin-monies shipment, 8 tons of late 19th and early 20th century coins, pennies through gold double-eagles, bound for the Great White Fleet then at Gibraltar. This cargo alone has been appraised today at between $150 million and $340 million. The second, a much more intriguing $25 million shipment comprised of double-eagles, mint-state twenty-dollar gold pieces, 45 tons of gold coins, the proceeds from Tsarist Russia’s sale of its January 22, 1909 Bonds on Wall Street. That cargo, if it exists, has been appraised at $4 billion to $7 billion."

I don't know how salvage costs have gone up/down since 1990 or so (when they might have first tried to get the coins) but the price of gold is about 4x higher so that's a plus. If only bullion -- no premium, probably a worst-case scenario -- 150,000 coins would be about $60 MM 35 years ago. Today, it's closer to $275 MM.

It could...if the coins haven't spilled out, and they were definitely there, then they are somewhere on a 500-foot ship. There could be dozens of places the coins were moved......could have been taken to an alternate holding area. 150,000 coins is about 600 bags (250 count) or 300 bags (500 count). Not sure there are bigger bags. But if you can find the entire stash it makes things easier. And if the bags got shifted around, it adds to the cost/complexity. If the bags OPENED and the coins went all over the place, then the cost/complexity goes up exponentially.

I would just say to the Moderators...that as someone who has read most/all of Quntus' posts in this section (particularly on Saints, Roosters, and the Coin Hobby).....I believe his "contentiousness" is merely his ideosynchartic way of speaking, much as some people speak in rhymes or riddles (like The Riddler ) or Iamic Pentameter or whatever it was that I was taught 45 years ago (and thankfully forgot). Anyway, kudos to the Mods for enlarging our enlightened circle. Now let's find those lost 150,000 Double Eagles and split the loot ! The Riddler would be proud (but maybe not Joker, Catwoman, and Penguin !)

They have to verify that the coins are there (probably) and then determine WHERE on the boat they would have been kept. If those coins spread out over the ocean floor, the increase in salvage costs could make the whole thing a money-loser. Believe it or not, they can't find a schematic/layout of the ship.

The 1908 Motto really takes off at MS-65 but you see it separate from bullion at MS-62/63: https://www.pcgs.com/coinfacts/coin/1908-20-motto/9147 But if Roger is correct and they are damaged, you mostly are talking about AU-graded coins, right ? Even if you do restoration on the coins, I would guess they would expand the MS inventory for the 1908 Motto, but at a discount to the current prices. Similar to what happened to the 1857-S, where only Big $$$ got you one before the SSCA and then afterwards the price was lower and demand exploded via the publicity of the find.

We're fortunate that EC decided to grace our presence here and discuss his registry endeavors. Hopefully, he can keep us posted and updated without comprimising his ability to get the coins he wants. Regardless, seems like a very nice guy so hopefully he'll stick around !

The problem that EC and other high-end buyers reminds me of what I tell people in the financial markets: the advantage is with the SMALL guy. If I want to collect Saints and go after lots of key dates, I am probably buying just very good/excellent coins, not the Trophy Coins in the key dates. Which means I can bid anonymously....use auction sites.....and wait for my price. Nobody is going to gouge someone who wants an AU-58 or MS-63 MCMVII HR as opposed to an MS-67 CAC. Conversely, a super-high end buyer has limited coins he will accept...and if word leaks.....well.....advantage SELLER. Just like retail/small investors can go to cash in minutes or hours but it takes institutions days or weeks or even months. Sometimes, small is good.

I guess if you are putting together a top-end Saints collection....and you only want coins that are Top 3 (maybe Top 5)....word can more easily leak. I'm sure Bob Simpson had this problem (maybe he should have had Jessica bid for him). Since many of these people are very wealthy, the sellers may figure "He can pay this, I'll just wait him out." It's a cat-and-mouse game for sure.