GoldFinger1969

Right, but for better or worse (!) we use them for valuing the entire spectrum of coins.

Makes sense, right ?

I think the 1904-O was a bit more rare but both were up there.

What's up with this collection ? I see that Stacks-Bowers is having another auction on these coins next week. But I have never heard of the ORIGIN of this hoard -- starting with the name "Fairmont" and how it applies -- other than it apparently is an amalgamation of various bank hoards from Europe (or maybe 1 big bank hoard, not sure). "Collection" implies 1 person and intent to collect specific coins; a hoard to me is more random. I've heard both terms used in regards to Fairmont. Doug Winter has written extensively in his CoinWeek columns on this collection over the years. The Fairmont Collection/Hoard is thousands of gold coins and I believe dozens (maybe hundreds) of Double Eagles (mostly Liberty's but some Saints). Bulk of the coins appear to be smaller gold coins including Eagles, Half Eagles, Quarter Eagles, etc. Anybody know more about this collection/hoard ? Anybody buy any coins ?

You're saying you can jump more numerical increments in the EF and XF (and even AU grades) than in the MS ones, right ?

Eagle, I trust you have studied the history and price movements of the 1903-O Morgan in light of the 1960's Treasury Hoards, right ? Fascinating stretch of coin history !

You can always take photos as proof of any OGP direct ownership.

Here's some charts that provide more color. As I said, it's not a situation where my statements are all right (or wrong) nor yours. But buy and large, you want to avoid the big premium EXCEPT when bullion has based low for a while. One thing I think we can agree on: while Saints can go up-or-down based on gold movements (depending how much numismatic and bullion value the coin has), you can lose MUCH MORE from premiums disappearing than from the a drop in the price of gold.

The information on many threads here and on other sites is invaluable. The back-and-forth....as long as you can separate the opinions from facts, it's invaluable....look at all the information a Saint Double Eagle fan get from the RWB Saints Thread, interacting with Roger, hearing other experts chime in, etc. Outside of a conference on Saints 40 years ago, I don't know how you would get all that information unless you had accumulated it over many years. Same thing with other niche coins that I don't follow. The internet brings together dozens or hundreds of experts all in one place that was impossible before the 2000's.

Unless there are new books coming out on Saints and/or Double Eagles, it's UNLIKELY I'll be buying new books on that series. I would gladly buy a 2nd Edition of Bower's DE book if they ever do it....I have some Morgans and will probably buy more in the future so getting the 7th Edition (8th ?) might be worthwhile since I only have the 4th Edition. I don't expect tons more information (except udpated prices) but would hope for a new chapter or two and updated paragraphs throughout. If I knew that, I'd run out and get the latest edition.

As you accumulate MORE stuff, you'll find yourself not looking as often. When I only had a few coins and/or bills, I would look at them every few days and keep them handy like at my desk. Now, they're packed up and secluded.

True...but if you still think there's a chance somebody might want that information contained in the box, then take some smartphone pics on your phone and save them to a Coin Folder. Back it up, too !

I include the Red Book or any other book primers for beginners. As an example, I probably consult Roger's SAINTS book every few weeks. If I was more active buying, I'd probably check it more often. 40 years ago, you only had books or magazines. Today, with the internet and message forums like this, you have lots more choices. I still think books have value.

Enjoy them. They're not investments, they're a hobby. I like to look at my premium bills and coins every now-and-then, too.

It's not a perfect correlation, Al.....I've posted the charts (I can do it again) and it's not perfect. If anything, I think the relationship is stronger NOW than it was in the 1970's and 1980's when we were just coming off the fixed price of gold, fixed currencies, inflation, etc. If you get a bubble or additional price rise in the numismatic coins like Saints and gold is flat or retreats, then that premium will rise and the gain in the price of the Saint is even larger. However, that was the exception more found in the 1970's and 1980's. Since the TPGs came into existence, it is rare to find numimsatic (or semi-numismatic as the 1924 Saint MS-65 is considered) coins go UP while gold goes DOWN or is flat. I do agree: if you can buy numismatic when the gold price is low and the premium is low, you are getting the Best of Both Worlds. Then the rise in gold and a rise in premium are a tailwind -- THAT is what buyers experienced a few times from 1973-1990.

RWB's PRICE GRIDS: The price matrices at the end of every coin chapter in the book are an invaluable source of information (kudos to Roger and HA). For those of you who have an interest in Double Eagles (Saints or Liberty's) and are relatively new to the forums, just wanted to expound a bit more on stuff I have talked about with Eagle and others regarding what I consider the difference in a big price move vs. a bubble. Eagle and DiamondSlayer may find this useful. Now, it may be a matter of semantics but I'll use the 1924 Saint which is as common a gold coin as you can find. This coin sold for the mid-$200's in MS-65 quality (which may have even been MS-66 or more today) in 1976 and 1977. By 1980-81 the coin was selling for over $1,250 with the premium to gold even higher than it was before (gold peaked in early 1980). By the mid-1980's (even though gold had backed off and was in the $300-$400 range), the MS-65 was up 10-fold from the price a decade earlier. Now THAT is a bubble ! The price for a 1924 MS-65 Saint peaked at just over $4,000 in 1989....then fell to $1,500 by 1991. Gold went down a bit but not by that much. It's counterintuitive, but when the premium is HIGH and the gold price LOW...that tends to be when it is best to buy numismatic gold. However, you still might make more money on a big sustained rise in gold by buying pure bullion coins. You still make $$$ with the numimsatics, just not as much.

Do you think maybe you can create a "sticky" for BOTH the Newcomer and U.S. Coins section where we can post the solutions to this glitch, Dave ? Or maybe post an email address that folks who can't login can contact someone at NGC -- or one of us -- for help ?

The price history from the past is tough to replicate on these books. I have the 1970 Red Book because it pre-dates the rise in gold/silver of the 1970's. Amazing to see the prices for the coins I have interest in like Saints.

I wonder if maybe we should have the Mods post a sticky and/or email where they can find the work-around. I still don't know why this glitch happens after a while....it's very tricky. But the Incognito Window or Tab seems to work as long as I kill the existing window, open a new Incognito, and then login. If I try and login without killing the old tab, I get the registry page with a big picture of my avatar. Gotta open a NEW tab and then the login comes in....hit the X to kill the popup and your login AND password should be filled-in automatically....hit the STAY LOGGED IN box and you should be set.

They do ? In circulated condition ? Must be lots of demand there from lots of collectors doing pennies and dimes right ? I'm not familiar with those series at all but I know lots of beginners start out with them (I thought because they are easy to collect and affordable). Because tens of thousands in circulated must mean lots more in the other grades, higher and lower. As for Liberty DE collectors relative to 1,500 of the 1860-S's.....if we assume that there are no more and probablye FEWER Liberty DE collectors than Saint DE collectors, the numbers I've seen are 500-1,000 for serious registry collector types....and maybe 25,000 or so for type collectors. But I would think anybody lookign for a type Liberty would look to a 1904 or 1907 Liberty where more quantity in higher grades exist. But the 1860-S has a certain appeal, as our friend DS posted eaerlier.

Woman was a teacher....nice pension...single....moonlighted as a witch part-time for another paycheck...pending lawsuit against Toto and Dorothy. She was probably rolling in dough !!

Don't quote me on this.....and I'm not 100% sure....but my experience has told me that sellers are a wee bit faster to RAISE prices when costs go up than to CUT prices when costs go down. I'll research this and report back......

Well, if you want my best guess...assuming active coin collector....going back 3 years or so.....and either purchasing and reading a book OR re-reading and/or consulting select chapters in a book already read (like I do with your book or Bowers & Akers books)....I'm gonna say 25%.

Miss Gulch was a miser who probably had a nice stash of gold. I'd wager she had some 1933 DE's, too !

RECENT SALES: A 1927 MS-67 went for $20,000 with BP over at GC.....a 1925 MS-66 went for $4,000....a 1925 MS-66+ CAC went for $5,700....and in the bullion section, a pair of 1923 MS-61 NGC sold for about $2,050 - $2,100 which is about a 15% premium to the then-price of gold......a 1916-S MS-66+ NGC went for $12,500....a pair of 1914-S MS-65 NGC at just under $3,000 but another sold for just under $3,500 even though it looked about the same at 1st glance....some details coins like a 1911-S and 1908 NM could be had for a total cost just under $2,000.