numisport

On 12/10/2022 at 4:25 PM, Quintus Arrius said:

Not enough hours in the day to review the entire historical timeline on these coins, but I believe the referral by the family attorney was made in good faith, possibly by a family attorney was made after conferring with a TPGS (which reviewed the cache years later).  Frankly, I do not believe there was any around it.  I am sure there are those who are incensed they had chosen that route but if the entire lot was declared contraband, maybe they should have hit the USG auction block. After all, what good does sitting in a vault, in perpetuity, do anyone?  There are two schools of thought attendant to their disposition.  If they are not legal to own, they should be exhibited.  Throwing then into a depository serves no useful purpose. If that is the USGs posture, then they should be melted down and the gold either thrown into a cauldron, containing a similar fineness of gold, or used to Mint a new, smaller, Limited Edition gold coin dated 2033.  Everybody in favor, say aye!  

Aye !

On 12/11/2022 at 3:27 PM, VKurtB said:

No slab ever has been 100 percent air tight. They aren’t designed to be and nobody even claims they are. This myth needs to be crushed. 

It is possible that a slab is 100 percent air tight. My proof coppers are likely not air tight 

On 12/10/2022 at 11:12 AM, Quintus Arrius said:

🐓:  1965?  That's a typo!  Shouldn't that have read 1865?

Q.A.  Surely, you don't suggest I tell him that!

 

Oh my, thanks for the correction. If memory serves me right didn't the Switt family submit those 33's to the mint ? And then the Secret Service got involved ?

NGC holders are superior IMO and its possible that your holder is 100 percent air tight. However there would be some air inside the holder as I doubt they draw a vacuum when sealed.

Of course the government would suffer from exchange just as collectors and dealers would due to loss from worn coins. In an unrelated thought I've always thought it interesting that the Secret Service could be tasked with anything to do with the '33s since the agency wasn't even established until 1965. With that said do you trust any government agency with the truth after what the FBI did to us prior to the 2020 election ?

In case anyone is interested I've nearly completed my '36 to '42 proofs with my sets only lacking the 1936 brilliant Lincoln cent, the satin cent and the satin Buffalo nickel. View my registry sets if you wish. These are not finest known but include all CAC coins with above average eye appeal. I've avoided the Pf 68 coins because many are not appealing to me with heavy toning and dull mirrors. Better images will follow someday

On 11/11/2022 at 5:28 PM, FlyingAl said:

I recently started on a long journey that I wanted to share the start of to get a few thoughts on. What do you guys think of this idea, and should I finish it for all of the coins? Note: the half dollar study is nearly done. I can upload that as well, though I will likely do it as a PDF due to the images not pasting correctly.

Here is my intro for the full die study, followed by the first two cent entries. I did not edit my intro for this post, so it can give you an idea of my view for the finished product.

Here you go!

This is a die study of the known cameo proof coins and their die pairs based on PCGS and NGC certification. This guide’s intention is to serve as a deterrent to counterfeiters who wish to deceive collectors. It can, however, serve as a guide for collectors who wish to search for a coin from dies that had the best details they had to offer. These dies are almost always the dies that produced cameo coins. By being able to match a coin to a die pair that produced cameo coins of a later die state, collectors can obtain a coin with much higher attractiveness than usual for a normal price.

Only coins with verifiable cameo dies and cameo die pairs were included, which required high quality images. One altered coin was discovered in this undertaking, which was a major reason for its production. Such coins can be altered by taking a normal non-cameo coin and adding a solvent to the devices that make them appear white or coppery. When well done, this alteration can be extremely difficult to spot, even for a professional. As such, several coins have made their way into TPGS holders as altered coins, yet they were not spotted as such. The TPGS have been fervently hunting such coins and to correct their errors. The best tool for a collector to avoid this is to use die matching, which can be achieved by use of this guide.. By analyzing the die pairs used in the production of these coins, it is likely that no other altered coin will ever be certified.

The numbers used are Cameo Numbers, abbreviated CA-X. The X will be replaced by the number of the die in the order it appears in the sequence of denomination and year order, commonly referred to as “Redbook order”. All cents will come before nickels and so forth.

For dies discovered or added after the original set of study is complete, their numbers will come after the highest currently known die number. For a coin to be considered, it must be graded as a cameo by PCGS, NGC, or CAC. ANACS and ICG coins will be considered, so long as the contrast can be verified. In addition, another coin from the same die pair must show a similar degree of contrast, though it may not be certified as cameo. This is used as an anti-counterfeiting safeguard.

All information relating to use dates is from Roger Burdette’s work on the subject, titled United States Proof Coins 1936-1942.

Example
CA-X (Cameo Number)
Possible Use Dates: Dates that new die pairs were used or where the die use could be narrowed to a day or set of days.
Die Markers: Markers of each die and images of those markers.
Description and Coins Possible: Description of the coins and coins likely remaining.
Image: Image of a coin. (Usually a TrueView from CoinFacts unless labeled as such.)
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CENTS

1936 Proof Cent 
CA-1
Possible Use Date: September 15th.
Die Markers: Die scratches extending from the right upright of the T in TRUST, impression midway up the N in UNUM.

Description and Coins Possible: There appears to only be one die pair capable of striking proof cameo 1936 cents, but since die records are missing for a large part of the year, one cannot be sure of this. The cent is the only currently known 1936 cameo proof, which makes it quite rare in the series and it commands a substantial premium. Less than ten are likely to exist today.
Image:

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1937 Proof Cent
CA-2
Possible Use Dates: March 18th, September 8th, October 4th. 
Die Markers: Striations off of the N in ONE and E in AMERICA. Circular die lines on the obverse portrait. 


Description and Coins Possible: A deep cameo reverse is common. One of two known die pairs, this is the more desirable and most contrasted. It is likely that this die produced around twenty cameo coins. Several Ultra Cameo coins were produced from this die pair, which would lead one to believe that this date and denomination is quite common when compared to other cameos. Around 30 cameos probably exist from this die alone.
Image:

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Feel free to put any thoughts in a comment - anything you would change or add, or any comments in general. If you were a collector of these coins, what would you want?

As noted, the study is not anywhere near complete. I can also only trace dies that produced cameos for one use cycle - when dies were repolished they often lose their identifying characteristics. There are rare exceptions, but I don't think those exceptions would be of use to a collector.

This subject is one of my favorites along with Cameo SMS coinage. I would also enjoy any information on 1950, 51 and 52 Cameo proof dies and as there was little or no polishing evident in 1950, 1951 and 1952 years offered some of the most beautiful 2 sided cameos of the early modern years. By the way the image of the '37 cent might be one that was graded Deep Cameo, do you own that coin ? 

What an entertaining thread that was ! It's enough to make me stay.

On 11/4/2022 at 9:32 PM, MarkFeld said:

 

“A gold sticker would equate to a "plus" grade, a green sticker would equate to a straight grade and a "C" level coin would get a details grade or a net grade.”

I think the above portion of your post is either incorrect or unclear, as follows:

A gold sticker indicates a coin that’s solid for the next grade up (or better) and doesn’t necessarily have anything to do with a “+” grade. As an example, a coin currently in a 65 holder with a gold sticker will probably grade either 66, 66+ or 67 at the new grading company.

It’s expected that most C coins will be graded a point lower then they did at PCGS or NGC, but with a “+”. So for example, if CAC has rejected a coin in a 65 holder because they thought it was of C quality, the new service will likely grade it 64+. On the other hand, if they rejected a coin in a 65 holder because they thought it was over-dipped, cleaned or with some other issue that merited a details (rather than straight) grade, they will assign a details grade.

 

 

I collect mostly NGC/CAC coins. I think the NGC holder is superior so I wonder if [after CACG certification] NGC would cross that coin with a label that identifies a CACG certification. That way the holder will fit in a box with the other NGC graded coins. Oh wait....... then CAC didn't save me money.

These coins are very attractive high end coins to say the least. However they are not rare and maybe not even scarce. With that said where is the half dollar and cent ?

On 10/12/2022 at 10:09 PM, Hoghead515 said:

Really breaks my heart this one is scratched. Probably from a staple on a coin flip. Even though it has mushy details, I really like this one. I keep it in a cardboard coin flip. I really like how alot of these buffalo nickels have the streaky toning to them. You can see the large scratch at the top of the reverse. Its sad to see these old coins get damaged. Espically when it can probably be prevented alot of times. 

Are you talking about reverse scratch through 'OF' ? Could it be die scratch ?

Was I the only one who saw that ?

On 9/16/2022 at 2:21 PM, The Neophyte Numismatist said:

 

Its countereit right ?

Hog I thought about you and your set when I won these. The 64-D is semi prooflike and is rare in full prooflike. While not key dates 

the eye appeal is what I thought to be special.

On 10/8/2022 at 5:45 PM, RWB said:

Nope.

1) A "star" "asterisk" "flumbot" or other character is not a grade --- just a decoration. 2) "Frost" "fog" "snow" "ice" are not part of a grade - they express nothing about the state of preservation of a coin or medal.

A meaningful grade is a written and numerical description of the deterioration of a coin or medal from the moment it leaves the dies to the present time; nothing else. Other factors of collector interest are all subjective and thus infinitely variable among individuals. "Grade" must be stable over time, while other factors may go in and out of favor with collectors and thus modify the fair market value.

I consider the Star designation a valuable tool that levels the playing field with other TPGs. ATS collectors seem to want the holder as much as the coin; just look at the partisan numbers of collectors that want doilies or rattlers yet consider NGC labeled coins to be worth less when similar coins are compared to PCGS coins. If it weren't for CAC there would be no way for uninformed collectors to determine which PCGS coins were high end for the grade or which ones just barely make the grade [or worse yet ones that fail to meet the grade] and as we know there are a fair number of those.

On 10/8/2022 at 12:04 AM, FlyingAl said:

Update - the coin was cracked out and sent to NGC. When viewed outside of plastic, my determination fo a star grade was confirmed, and the reverse frost popped a bit more. I remember thinking that it had an outside shot at CAM (though I doubt it would ever go CAM). I graded it 67*, with a point bump for the frost. 

The submission was marked as delivered by the USPS on Thursday, but the package hasn't yet shown up in the find package feature or submission tracking. I figure this is due to the hurricane delays and wish the best for all at NGC who have been affected. 

Best of luck ! I think you're on the right track.

I cannot comment on the Saint without knowledge of the finer known pieces. What we see is the holder up for bid in the case of the 1950 Franklin, not the eye appeal of a nice proof coin. Proof coins should not be lustrous, they should have deep mirrors as intended. For about 3 or 4k you could own a beautiful Pf 65 Cameo black and white monster coin that one would be proud to own. 

There were many problems associated with striking proof coins for the first time since 1942. The Pf 68 coin offered appears to be struck on a planchet that was not polished among other things. 

On 9/29/2022 at 6:46 PM, FlyingAl said:

I had posted about this coin over at the PCGS forums but I figured I'd pop in over here as well and share with you guys. I had recently picked up this nice 1938 nickel with gorgeous frosted obverse devices, the deepest contrast I've seen on a 1938-42 Jefferson nickel. I was blown away by it. The mirrors are super deep as well, though the reverse lacks in frost. 

I think this will be the perfect candidate for a star when I submit it to NGC. The coin is the FS-402 obverse and the reverse with the die cracks across "FIVE" and "AMERICA". Only three cameos have been certified by NGC and PCGS, and only seven NGC star coins. Any contrasted 1938 nickel is a rare coin indeed. 

The pictures are hard to get right, but I assure you the whole bust is frosted and the mirrors are jet black and very reflective. The obverse has more contrast than my 1942 CAM cent. The reverse is nice, but not quite there for CAM. 

 

Looks like yours may have been struck with a new obverse die. Boy you've got good taste. Very few '38 nickels look like that. Here's mine purchased at least 10 years ago. I've always thought mine could Star but not enough contrast to Cameo. Roger can you comment ? By the way my registry set does have 3 Star coins with views if you care to look at Collectors Society.

On 9/30/2022 at 8:43 PM, DWLange said:

No. I arrived in California Tuesday for a scheduled vacation. A friend who lives nearby checked on my house afterward, and it seems to be fine. Thanks for inquiring.

I have one brother in law in Lakewood Ranch and another just inland from what [used to be] Fort Meyers Beach. For him some property damage is noted but he sat throuh it and is okay now. Mark in Lakewood Ranch is fine.

I've often wondered just how the 2 major TPGs generate their retail price guides; for me generally U.S. coins. Recently I won several coins that were certainly high end for the grade that had 6 or 7 bidders each at hammer prices that were a fraction of retail price guide. I agree that there is little gain for NGC or PCGS to maintain an accurate retail price guide. Would love to hear comments from NGC on this topic. Of course the response would be that these prices are only a guide and nothing more.

On 9/19/2022 at 10:14 PM, FlyingAl said:

Looks cameo to me. Try another opinion ?

A woman cannot be defined by some. Can a man be defined ? See why this wwouldn't work here.

And yes a beautiful coin. In medal turn as with Canadian coinage ?