Should "Grading" companies be more specific about cleaning, alterations, etc.? 0

[RWB]

Most of us have likely submitted a coin to a "grading" company, only to have it returned in a body bag labeled "cleaned," "tooled," "altered," "tan lines," or some other deflating term. Invariably, this is all the information given to customers for their money.

Should all "grading" companies be more specific about body bag labels such as stating where the defect is, or what kind of cleaning, or where the alteration is located?

[VKurtB]

Yes, I feel that could only help education of collectors, something that is BADLY needed. 

[Sandon]

    Unfortunately, there isn't enough room for an adequate description of most coins, impaired or not, on a grading service label, which I prefer to call a little paper tag. 

    A coin that has been "cleaned" may have been mistreated with any of a number of abrasives and/or chemicals applied in a wide range of intensities, which result in a wide range of appearances ranging from rather attractive to absolutely hideous.  Perhaps there is room on the tag for the words "lightly", "moderately", or "harshly"--the latter is sometimes already used--to measure the undesirability of the "cleaning", which would be subjective but hopefully at least somewhat helpful. 

   Another term needing clarification is "altered surface".  Both NGC and PCGS use this term, but NGC will not grade or encapsulate a coin said to have an "altered surface", while PCGS will encapsulate such a coin with a details grade.  NGC has defined an "altered surface" as follows:

"ALTERED SURFACE - The coin's surfaces have been extensively manipulated. For example, a Proof coin that has been altered to appear to be a Mint State coin, or vice versa. This alteration can often make authentication impossible."

   I have seen coins with a variety of appearances described as having an "altered surface", and other coins with similar appearances encapsulated with details grades and described as "cleaned", "burnished", "buffed", "polished"--which can make a circulation strike coin superficially look like a proof--or "tooled".  Obviously, anything done to change the appearance of a coin alters its surface!  If the grading service can't decide whether or not the coin is genuine, it should return the coin with a refund under the "no service" category.  There should at least be an explanation as to how the surface was "altered". 

 

[FlyingAl]

Where would the info be located?

 

[RWB]

There's lots of room on a body bag. The label might state "Relief coated to resemble natural frosting," or "Left wing tooled near tip to strengthen details."

[VKurtB]

On 1/20/2023 at 3:46 PM, FlyingAl said:

Where would the info be located?

 

It’s easy to get the information to the person who submitted the coin. KEEPING it with the coin is far more difficult. 

[FlyingAl]

On 1/20/2023 at 3:01 PM, RWB said:

There's lots of room on a body bag. The label might state "Relief coated to resemble natural frosting," or "Left wing tooled near tip to strengthen details."

Sure, but what about a details slab? 

There's not room to say AU Details - Cleaned on obverse from Y in LIBERTY down to base of bust.

I'd suggest keeping the labels as is and adding the info to the Cert lookup page. Much more room and it stays with the coin.

[VKurtB]

On 1/20/2023 at 3:32 PM, Sandon said:

   I have seen coins with a variety of appearances described as having an "altered surface", and other coins with similar appearances encapsulated with details grades and described as "cleaned", "burnished", "buffed", "polished"--which can make a circulation strike coin superficially look like a proof--or "tooled". 

One beginner’s “unique special striking” is everybody else’s “altered surface”. Don’t believe me? Go read some older threads. 

[RWB]

On 1/20/2023 at 5:05 PM, FlyingAl said:

Sure, but what about a details slab? 

There is lots of room on a "details" slab insert. Simply the word Cleaned, Tooled, Sat on by Kardasian, Damaged Rev., and so forth. Once the useless stuff is given it's proper place, there is room for a lot of meaningful words inside the slab.

PS: Having to go to a "LQQK-UP" page someplace only impedes utility, rather than encourage it.

Edited January 20, 2023 by RWB

[JT2]

I absolutely agree.   there is plent of room to put a little round dot on the holder pointing to what is the issue.  I have looked at coins before and could swore that it was a problem free coin only for it to come back detailed or cleaned.   Even with crack outs that were straight graded by other TPG's...  I would love to see wjhat the see that the others did not.  

[FlyingAl]

Here's what I call a "maxed out" slab. There's not much room left for anything, at least keeping it to a size where it would be useful. 

 

[VKurtB]

On 1/20/2023 at 4:21 PM, FlyingAl said:

Here's what I call a "maxed out" slab. There's not much room left for anything, at least keeping it to a size where it would be useful. 

 

I feel like I wanna say, “Dayum!”

[VKurtB]

On 1/20/2023 at 4:09 PM, RWB said:

There is lots of room on a "details" slab insert. Simply the word Cleaned, Tooled, Sat on by Kardasian, Damaged Rev., and so forth. Once the useless stuff is given it's proper place, there is room for a lot of meaningful words inside the slab.

PS: Having to go to a "LQQK-UP" page someplace only impedes utility, rather than encourage it.

Kardasian? Lardassian! There, fixed it. 

[World Colonial]

It doesn't have to be on the label.  It can be on the webpage linked to the certification verification lookup.  Plenty of room there.

Additionally, for some coins, this can be resolved by discontinuing the use of the 70-point Sheldon scale in favor of the Ancients 5-pt scale using strike and surfaces.  I wouldn't change it for US Mint coins but would for my series (Spanish colonial pillars) and others like it.  Maybe for some US colonial and Territorial golds too.

[RWB]

RE: "Here's what I call a "maxed out" slab. There's not much room left for anything, at least keeping it to a size where it would be useful."

There's a lot of available territory. Here's the same label with a few minor adjustments. Everything is organized, left-justified and not cluttered at all. Lots of white space.

[GoldFinger1969]

Is this as important as accurate grading....counterfeit prevention....good photographs for security reasons....etc. ?

[FlyingAl]

On 1/20/2023 at 5:45 PM, RWB said:

RE: "Here's what I call a "maxed out" slab. There's not much room left for anything, at least keeping it to a size where it would be useful."

There's a lot of available territory. Here's the same label with a few minor adjustments. Everything is organized, left-justified and not cluttered at all. Lots of white space.

Fair enough. 

[bstrauss3]

There is also the potential to integrate the slab information with a rich pool of data that could be presented via the website lookup.

 

 

[RWB]

On 1/21/2023 at 9:41 AM, bstrauss3 said:

There is also the potential to integrate the slab information with a rich pool of data that could be presented via the website lookup.

 

 

Yes, and that would be nice to have, but no TPG will support that financially or technically. The best is, in my view, to put enough to inform the owner/future owner on the label.

[RWB]

On 1/20/2023 at 10:33 PM, GoldFinger1969 said:

Is this as important as accurate grading....counterfeit prevention....good photographs for security reasons....etc. ?

Maybe not objectively, but to the owner of a coin that looks perfect, but comes back "altered" it is critical.

[GoldFinger1969]

On 1/21/2023 at 11:28 AM, RWB said:

Maybe not objectively, but to the owner of a coin that looks perfect, but comes back "altered" it is critical.

If you call the TPG because the coin in question costs some $$$....wouldn't someone give you some information on what caused them to grade it as such ?

I wonder if they keep records (of some of the more valuable coins) and/or videotape the grading sessions.  If a heavy-hitter wants an explanation on why his $20,000 coin is now worth $5,000 because of a Details grade, if it's only a few days or weeks after the grading you'd think there would be a record, no ?

Edited January 21, 2023 by GoldFinger1969

[numisport]

Given the cost of certification and slabbing I think a full explanation of reasoning is warranted. For even a smaller fee at CAC I could get an explanation from John Albanese if he didn't like the coin.

[RWB]

On 1/21/2023 at 12:35 PM, GoldFinger1969 said:

If you call the TPG because the coin in question costs some $$$....wouldn't someone give you some information on what caused them to grade it as such ?

I wonder if they keep records (of some of the more valuable coins) and/or videotape the grading sessions.  If a heavy-hitter wants an explanation on why his $20,000 coin is now worth $5,000 because of a Details grade, if it's only a few days or weeks after the grading you'd think there would be a record, no ?

Anecdotal reports on hobby message boards say "No."

[VKurtB]

The four letter word (P something) company assigns codes in the 90’s that are useful, but not quite comprehensive. 

[blazeaglory]

So US coins get "DETAILS" if they've been cleaned? Say for instance someone had a MS coin and they wiped it with a soft glasses type bag and accidentally put a few light scratches on it. I actually did this with a PROOF Prussian coin trying to get a couple teeny tiny black specs off. I was a stupid rookie and learned my lesson but now I'm afraid to have it graded. I mean all the luster and 100yo haze is there and the coin shows no circulation but there's some really fine light scratches from that fateful  "wiping". I just had a Tiberius tribute penny come back as  Ch XF "wiped" when I sware it was at least a Ch AU. I looked under a loop and couldn't find any sign of cleaning or wiping but the silver was really smooth and shiny and I've seen other "tribute pennies" that look exactly the same get a MS grade.  Anyways, how do they grade a "cleaned" coin and will a few light scratches from a rookie's quick wiping cause issues? The horror... the horror

[J P M]

On 1/25/2023 at 10:10 PM, blazeaglory said:

So US coins get "DETAILS" if they've been cleaned? Say for instance someone had a MS coin and they wiped it with a soft glasses type bag and accidentally put a few light scratches on it. I actually did this with a PROOF Prussian coin trying to get a couple teeny tiny black specs off. I was a stupid rookie and learned my lesson but now I'm afraid to have it graded. I mean all the luster and 100yo haze is there and the coin shows no circulation but there's some really fine light scratches from that fateful  "wiping". I just had a Tiberius tribute penny come back as  Ch XF "wiped" when I sware it was at least a Ch AU. I looked under a loop and couldn't find any sign of cleaning or wiping but the silver was really smooth and shiny and I've seen other "tribute pennies" that look exactly the same get a MS grade.  Anyways, how do they grade a "cleaned" coin and will a few light scratches from a rookie's quick wiping cause issues? The horror... the horror

Not long ago someone sent in a new 2021 Morgan that was wiped before it was put in the case and left the mint. Or so it was said. It was graded as cleaned.

[VKurtB]

On 1/25/2023 at 9:10 PM, blazeaglory said:

So US coins get "DETAILS" if they've been cleaned? Say for instance someone had a MS coin and they wiped it with a soft glasses type bag and accidentally put a few light scratches on it. I actually did this with a PROOF Prussian coin trying to get a couple teeny tiny black specs off. I was a stupid rookie and learned my lesson but now I'm afraid to have it graded. I mean all the luster and 100yo haze is there and the coin shows no circulation but there's some really fine light scratches from that fateful  "wiping". I just had a Tiberius tribute penny come back as  Ch XF "wiped" when I sware it was at least a Ch AU. I looked under a loop and couldn't find any sign of cleaning or wiping but the silver was really smooth and shiny and I've seen other "tribute pennies" that look exactly the same get a MS grade.  Anyways, how do they grade a "cleaned" coin and will a few light scratches from a rookie's quick wiping cause issues? The horror... the horror

Yes, you have a keen grasp on the truth here. 

[World Colonial]

On 1/26/2023 at 8:36 AM, J P M said:

Not long ago someone sent in a new 2021 Morgan that was wiped before it was put in the case and left the mint. Or so it was said. It was graded as cleaned.

Not much if any equivalence.

Any 2021 Morgan where that happened deserves a "details" grade.  It's a very recently issued non-circulating.  It's also common as dirt where somewhere in the vicinity of 99%+ are actually "market acceptable" without this surface appearance.

I'd have to see the proof and Roman coins.  Depending upon what both look like, maybe one or both deserve a "details" grade, or not.  The Roman coin deserves a lot more leeway.

[World Colonial]

On 1/21/2023 at 12:35 PM, GoldFinger1969 said:

If you call the TPG because the coin in question costs some $$$....wouldn't someone give you some information on what caused them to grade it as such ?

I spoke to someone about a grading question once, but it was South African coins I submitted as patterns where I couldn't provide documentation to support what I claimed it to be.  I don't think I spoke to a grader, as I don't believe NGC would do that.

On 1/21/2023 at 12:35 PM, GoldFinger1969 said:

I wonder if they keep records (of some of the more valuable coins) and/or videotape the grading sessions.  If a heavy-hitter wants an explanation on why his $20,000 coin is now worth $5,000 because of a Details grade, if it's only a few days or weeks after the grading you'd think there would be a record, no ?

I don't consider either of those values "heavy hitters" in today's market.  No, I don't buy coins in this price range but the TPG's routinely grade coins of this value.

[RWB]

On 1/27/2023 at 1:41 PM, World Colonial said:

 

On 1/21/2023 at 12:35 PM, GoldFinger1969 said:

I wonder if they keep records (of some of the more valuable coins) and/or videotape the grading sessions.  If a heavy-hitter wants an explanation on why his $20,000 coin is now worth $5,000 because of a Details grade, if it's only a few days or weeks after the grading you'd think there would be a record, no ?

I don't consider either of those values "heavy hitters" in today's market.  No, I don't buy coins in this price range but the TPG's routinely grade coins of this value.

This is another illustration of the damage created when condition and "value" and linked during grading of a coin. The coin should be accurately described as it presently exists. The free market will determine its "value" at the time of sale.