Green Bean Crossover 0

[LDH Coins & Memorabilia]

Although I realize (from past responses on forum)  the negative financial impact of grading coins, and also the the CAC "green bean" is a gimmick, but I would like to know the forum thoughts on: Does a CaC sticker give you a better chance of having a coin crossover to other TPG and retain same grade ? 

thanx in advance  

[GoldFinger1969]

On 10/3/2022 at 10:13 PM, LDH Coins & Memorabilia said:

Although I realize (from past responses on forum)  the negative financial impact of grading coins, and also the the CAC "green bean" is a gimmick, but I would like to know the forum thoughts on: Does a CaC sticker give you a better chance of having a coin crossover to other TPG and retain same grade ? 

thanx in advance  

I think most here would disagree that CAC is a gimmick.  If a coin has the sticker, it's strong for the grade.  It's highly unlikely it would ever get re-graded LOWER -- if anything, a bump-up is a distinct possibility.

[J P M]

On 10/4/2022 at 1:12 AM, GoldFinger1969 said:

I think most here would disagree that CAC is a gimmick.  If a coin has the sticker, it's strong for the grade.  It's highly unlikely it would ever get re-graded LOWER -- if anything, a bump-up is a distinct possibility.

I agree, Even in the NGC coin registry they give points for green and gold CAC stickers on coins.

[Henri Charriere]

...respectfully this conversation is not over until the memberships most vociferous proponent on this subject has chimed in...

[JT2]

On 10/4/2022 at 7:49 AM, Quintus Arrius said:

respectfully this conversation is not over until the memberships most vociferous proponent on this subject has chimed in...

OK here i am.... did someone say they were going to buy one of my do it yourself at home sticker kits?........hheheheheehh  i am running a special this month for $19.95  or are we still going to wait on you  know who?

[bsshog40]

I don't follow or ever submitted to CAC. I have one coin that has a green bean cause I bought it that way. Like them or not, they seem to have been accepted in the hobby by most collectors. To your question, hopefully the tpg got your grade right as a bean doesn't always represent grade as it could also be for eye appeal. 

[LDH Coins & Memorabilia]

My apologies to the forum for stereotyping because of a few comments on grading, and thank you Goldfinger1969 for the information. I've been hunting for one coin to complete all date & all mint marks set but all I see are overpriced ones in the needed TPG slab  but I see one in the other TPG reasonably priced  but needs crossover to keep set uniformity. Thanks to all  

[zadok]

On 10/3/2022 at 10:13 PM, LDH Coins & Memorabilia said:

Although I realize (from past responses on forum)  the negative financial impact of grading coins, and also the the CAC "green bean" is a gimmick, but I would like to know the forum thoughts on: Does a CaC sticker give you a better chance of having a coin crossover to other TPG and retain same grade ? 

thanx in advance  

...in theory it should but no guarantee due to the biases between the two major tpgs against each other, they may say they grade each coin on its own merits but the evidence is to the contrary....

[GoldFinger1969]

On 10/4/2022 at 9:25 AM, bsshog40 said:

I don't follow or ever submitted to CAC. I have one coin that has a green bean cause I bought it that way. Like them or not, they seem to have been accepted in the hobby by most collectors. To your question, hopefully the tpg got your grade right as a bean doesn't always represent grade as it could also be for eye appeal. 

I have 1 or 2 CACs but they are Morgans.....don't have any Saints but hope to once I have replenished my bank account. 

[GoldFinger1969]

On 10/4/2022 at 10:33 AM, zadok said:

...in theory it should but no guarantee due to the biases between the two major tpgs against each other, they may say they grade each coin on its own merits but the evidence is to the contrary....

I actually think they DO grade on the merits.  The problem is the graders are people.  They are fallible.  They have good days and bad days.  There are times in the day when their eyes are super-sharp and other times of the day they are a bit tired.

They miss things.  Sometimes when they catch them, they disagree on them.  Are bag marks on the devices worse or better than in the fields ?

The gross misses -- which usually have threads here or ATS -- are thankfully few and far between.  That's not to say that gradeflation is not a problem...but if you DO think gradeflation is a problem, then CAC is your Best Friend. 

[VKurtB]

On 10/4/2022 at 11:07 AM, GoldFinger1969 said:

I actually think they DO grade on the merits.  The problem is the graders are people.  They are fallible.  They have good days and bad days.  There are times in the day when their eyes are super-sharp and other times of the day they are a bit tired.

They miss things.  Sometimes when they catch them, they disagree on them.  Are bag marks on the devices worse or better than in the fields ?

The gross misses -- which usually have threads here or ATS -- are thankfully few and far between.  That's not to say that gradeflation is not a problem...but if you DO think gradeflation is a problem, then CAC is your Best Friend. 

But graders always do know that a crossover coin is one, and then tend to view them with a highly critical jaundiced eye. It’s a case of taking on the potential liability of the grading guarantee. It’s one reason I send in non-cross-eligible (ANACS and ICG) with the slab’s inner holder still around the coin. It puts them on notice that they’re NOT the first ones to grade this coin. 

Edited October 4, 2022 by VKurtB

[GoldFinger1969]

On 10/4/2022 at 4:25 PM, VKurtB said:

But graders always do know that a crossover coin is one, and then tend to view them with a highly critical jaundiced eye. It’s a case of taking on the potential liability of the grading guarantee. It’s one reason I send in non-cross-eligible (ANACS and ICG) with the slab’s inner holder still around the coin. It puts them on notice that they’re NOT the first ones to grade this coin. 

Did you ever read the Franklin Gradeflation thread over ATS ?  

Fascinating....

[GoldFinger1969]

On 10/4/2022 at 4:25 PM, VKurtB said:

It’s a case of taking on the potential liability of the grading guarantee. It’s one reason I send in non-cross-eligible (ANACS and ICG) with the slab’s inner holder still around the coin. It puts them on notice that they’re NOT the first ones to grade this coin. 

If it was in an ANACS or ICG holder, of course it's already been graded -- am I missing something  ?  Or maybe I'm confused. 

You send in non-cross eligble -- why are you sending it in if it's not eligible for crossing ?  Not sure what the importance of the inner holder is....who is "on notice" ?  PCGS or NGC ?  ANACs or ICG ?

Sorry, either the post is confusing or I'm not sure what you are trying to say.

 

Edited October 5, 2022 by GoldFinger1969

[VKurtB]

When I cross a PCGS coin to NGC, it goes in the PCGS holder. When I submit raw coins, they go in 2.5” flips. When I send in an ICG or ANACS coin, I break out the outer clear plastic but leave the coin in the inner “gasket”. This shows who graded it previously, but not at what grade. Interestingly, all seem to match, old to new, at least for me. It tells me that for me and the stuff I send in, grade inflation is a myth. 

Edited October 5, 2022 by VKurtB

[zadok]

On 10/4/2022 at 12:07 PM, GoldFinger1969 said:

I actually think they DO grade on the merits.  The problem is the graders are people.  They are fallible.  They have good days and bad days.  There are times in the day when their eyes are super-sharp and other times of the day they are a bit tired.

They miss things.  Sometimes when they catch them, they disagree on them.  Are bag marks on the devices worse or better than in the fields ?

The gross misses -- which usually have threads here or ATS -- are thankfully few and far between.  That's not to say that gradeflation is not a problem...but if you DO think gradeflation is a problem, then CAC is your Best Friend. 

...quit making excuses for the graders, its like saying the surgeon was tired today he will do better next time...thats b---s---, thats why they have each graded coin reviewed by quality control to see if its inconsistent n its regraded...the point was the evidence contradicts what they say...i have on more than one occasion submitted a coin for cross over n it was declined n then broke it out n resubmitted the coin n it graded the same grade as it was in the other tpg holder n in one instance actually upgraded...there is a bias, they do not like to or want to accept the grading services decision they prefer to make it look like the competition is less accurate...this is more likely to happen in foreign coins, n one service is more biased than the other...

[zadok]

On 10/4/2022 at 6:12 PM, GoldFinger1969 said:

Did you ever read the Franklin Gradeflation thread over ATS ?  

Fascinating....

...has nothing to do with crossovers...

[VKurtB]

On 10/4/2022 at 5:12 PM, GoldFinger1969 said:

Did you ever read the Franklin Gradeflation thread over ATS ?  

Fascinating....

To answer your question, no, I VERY seldom read ANYTHING from ATS. 

[EagleRJO]

On 10/3/2022 at 10:13 PM, LDH Coins & Memorabilia said:

... the CAC "green bean" is a gimmick

I generally agree for average value coins, particularly since the major TPGs have had the "+" grade designation for a while. However, I do see value in having another expert look at a coin and the grade for more expensive coins, particularly where there can be significant price changes for relatively minor grade differences that can be somewhat subjective.

I could also see it possibly helping in your situation of submitting a crossover, where maybe there might be less of a tendency to be overly critical of a previously assigned grade, if that was going to be an issue without that.

Edited October 5, 2022 by EagleRJO

[GoldFinger1969]

On 10/5/2022 at 1:05 AM, zadok said:

...has nothing to do with crossovers...

OK, re-submissions...not sure if they cracked it out first or whatever.  I've never done it but the bottom line was you had rare pop coins going up 1 1/2 grades with CAC and the value increasing 20-fold.

[zadok]

On 10/5/2022 at 6:22 PM, GoldFinger1969 said:

OK, re-submissions...not sure if they cracked it out first or whatever.  I've never done it but the bottom line was you had rare pop coins going up 1 1/2 grades with CAC and the value increasing 20-fold.

...thats still happening...my point was that there was/is a bias on crossovers at the tpgs....

[VKurtB]

On 10/5/2022 at 5:57 AM, EagleRJO said:

I generally agree for average value coins, particularly since the major TPGs have had the "+" grade designation for a while. However, I do see value in having another expert look at a coin and the grade for more expensive coins, particularly where there can be significant price changes for relatively minor grade differences that can be somewhat subjective.

I could also see it possibly helping in your situation of submitting a crossover, where maybe there might be less of a tendency to be overly critical of a previously assigned grade, if that was going to be an issue without that.

This may be true. The “bean” business is primarily a rich man’s game. Highest end material. It’s also illogical to beat the band. When a gold beaned 65 is bringing more than a 66, logic has left the building. 

[GoldFinger1969]

On 10/5/2022 at 6:27 PM, zadok said:

...thats still happening...my point was that there was/is a bias on crossovers at the tpgs....

Understood....I think the examples that the OP had was it was a PCGS holder and he sent it to them a few times.  Never got upgraded...then a few years later he saw it in a much higher-graded holder and flipped out.

Surprised that thread lasted as long as it did but I believe lots of people got removed for posting stuff there.

Edited October 5, 2022 by GoldFinger1969

[GoldFinger1969]

On 10/5/2022 at 7:20 PM, VKurtB said:

When a gold beaned 65 is bringing more than a 66, logic has left the building. 

I haven't seen that and I've been on the lookout for it, at least with DEs.

[VKurtB]

On 10/5/2022 at 6:56 PM, GoldFinger1969 said:

I haven't seen that and I've been on the lookout for it, at least with DEs.

May I ask why you’d be looking for it? It is the ultimate in controversy. Three professional graders, at least, agreed on grade X. Then ONE GUY, ONE FALLIBLE HUMAN BEING says, “Nope, should be at least X+1.”  If you want to believe the one guy, that’s your prerogative and maybe to need to crack it out and send it in again raw. But I’m sorry. I would rather believe the three or more guys than ANY one guy; I don’t care WHO IT IS. Hence I will never submit ANY COIN WHATSOEVER to CAC. As usual, I have REASONS for my refusal to follow the mob, even when we call that mob “the market”.

Edited October 6, 2022 by VKurtB

[zadok]

On 10/5/2022 at 7:56 PM, GoldFinger1969 said:

I haven't seen that and I've been on the lookout for it, at least with DEs.

...it happens all the time, sometimes as much as a 200% increase...usually on very early encapsulations...ive seen several id pay that premium in the areas that i aggressively collect....

[GoldFinger1969]

On 10/5/2022 at 9:04 PM, VKurtB said:

May I ask why you’d be looking for it? It is the ultimate in controversy. Three professional graders, at least, agreed on grade X. Then ONE GUY, ONE FALLIBLE HUMAN BEING says, “Nope, should be at least X+1.”  If you want to believe the one guy, that’s your prerogative and maybe to need to crack it out and send it in again raw. But I’m sorry. I would rather believe the three or more guys than ANY one guy; I don’t care WHO IT IS. Hence I will never submit ANY COIN WHATSOEVER to CAC. As usual, I have REASONS for my refusal to follow the mob, even when we call that mob “the market”.

I'm talking about a 65 CAC or any other grade costing more than a 1-grade higher coin (in this case, 66).  I haven't seen it and I scour the auctions weekly.  Not even for "+" grades.

On 10/5/2022 at 9:34 PM, zadok said:

...it happens all the time, sometimes as much as a 200% increase...usually on very early encapsulations...ive seen several id pay that premium in the areas that i aggressively collect....

I see big boosts for Saints from 66 to 67 for some of the commons....but even a 66+CAC isn't going to come close to a 67, at least not for the ones I am looking at.

[EagleRJO]

On 10/5/2022 at 6:22 PM, GoldFinger1969 said:

... you had rare pop coins going up 1 1/2 grades with CAC and the value increasing 20-fold.

Sounds like a very limited group, maybe a few higher grade less common gold coins, that doesn't really apply to a general discussion and may have more to do with the age of the orig holder.

On 10/5/2022 at 9:34 PM, zadok said:

... sometimes as much as a 200% increase...usually on very early encapsulations

Yea, I have seen that happen too with some CC Morgans and a few older half dollar coins, typically an OGH with a CAC, mostly at the spike earlier this year. Collectors seemed to go ga-ga over them even if they paid more of a premium than a grade bump would give you, so I avoid those like the plague. 😉

I think it may be more to do with the older holders and change in grading standards, and it may be happening less often now with ppl pulling back on what thay are spending.

Edited October 6, 2022 by EagleRJO

[GoldFinger1969]

On 10/5/2022 at 10:52 PM, EagleRJO said:

Sounds like a very limited group, maybe a few higher grade less common gold coins, that doesn't really apply to a general discussion and may have more to do with the age of the orig holder.

No, that was for Franklin Half-Dollars.  It was an infamous Franklin Gradeflation Thread that apparently had many victims, maybe some here. 

 

"I have seen that happen too with some CC Morgans and a few older half dollar coins, typically an OGH with a CAC, mostly at the spike earlier this year. Collectors seemed to go ga-ga over them even if they paid more of a premium than a grade bump would give you, so I avoid those like the plague.  I think it may be more to do with the older holders and change in grading standards, and it may be happening less often now with ppl pulling back on what thay are spending.

The OGH might indicate that a coin by itself was conservatively graded decades ago and might deserve a grade bump, with or without a CAC.  But OGH and confirmation by an experienced grader, with or without CAC, I could see the price jumping to the next grade level for some coins.  Don't doubt it hasn't happened.

I just haven't seen it for the Saints I track closely.  But most are recent holders, not OGH.  OGH + CAC (I don't think you'd see OGH and a "+") might be enough to get you a 1 grade bump.  But if that was the case, wouldn't the Gold Bean be there to indicate too LOW for the grade instead of just SOLID for the grade (as a Green Bean indicates) ?

Edited October 6, 2022 by GoldFinger1969

[EagleRJO]

I recall something about those coins. But that was a while ago and I thought it related more to a different view on toned coins combined with diff standards, plus newer ppl over-grading some of those, and not about crossovers or CAC.

[VKurtB]

On 10/5/2022 at 6:56 PM, GoldFinger1969 said:

I haven't seen that and I've been on the lookout for it, at least with DEs.

Well, I readily admit I can’t match TPGS grades on gold coins. My grades are usually a couple of steps below the “Big 2”, sometimes more. Gold is graded totally different from other coins and no one will ever convince me otherwise.