Official Saint-Gaudens/Gold Coin Price Thread 2 2

[Henri Charriere]

FWIW... To sum up... not a single eccentric has offered to bid on this coin -- whose life on the auction block was discreetly extended another week -- and it remains at $60,000.  While the coin presumably has melt value (adjusted for wear, if that is applicable) I would like to go on record as saying I would reject outright, however well-intentioned, an offer from anyone to acquire it for one red cent. It is a comfort to me to know that a preponderance of members, so far, have indicated their mental faculties are intact by simply doing nothing.

I thank @GoldFinger1969 for bringing this striking example of a reality check to the attention of the membership. 

[GoldFinger1969]

On 8/7/2023 at 12:19 PM, zadok said:

due to softness of gold it wouldnt be unexpected, question is did people actually spend $20 gold that much?

As RWB wrote in his book and others have posted here....the useage of Saints was DRAMATICALLY reduced compared to Liberty DEs.  The Bowers LH DE book documents how the San Francisco Mint was much more active with gold coins and DEs being used not only for trade, but for banking settlements, commerce, retail, entertainment venues, etc.

Ironically, that Saint is from San Francisco but long after the gold boom and heyday of DE gold coin usage.  Smaller gold coins, as written here, were much more frequently used during the striking of both types of DEs.

Edited August 7, 2023 by GoldFinger1969

[GoldFinger1969]

On 8/7/2023 at 1:36 PM, Henri Charriere said:

FWIW... To sum up... not a single eccentric has offered to bid on this coin -- whose life on the auction block was discreetly extended another week -- and it remains at $60,000. 

Again....EF or AU vs. MS is one thing....I think that coin is easily affordable to a very wealthy collector but same collector can pay 2-5x as much and get a good-looking one.

If it wants a buyer among the masses, probably needs the price reduced to $15,000 - $25,000.  

JMHO.

Edited August 7, 2023 by GoldFinger1969

[World Colonial]

On 8/7/2023 at 6:07 AM, Henri Charriere said:

My thoughts... somebody somewhere needs that DE badly for his low-ball set, but that aside, the bean, contrary to what z may crow, has shown itself in no way more concretely than it possibly can, to be a superfluous accessory. Gold is valuable but you couldn't pay ME one cent to own this. I'm dying to hear what @World Colonial has to say about this. 

PCGS Coin Facts records two sales of an MS-63 in 2022 (both at $200K+) with the prior sale before it @ $120K in 2020, also as a '63".  So, it's had a huge price increase.

I'd guess the seller is fishing for a whale, under the assumption that this is the only affordable example available for someone who considers it a "must have" for their set, whatever set that is.

PCGS Coin Facts estimates 50-75 known.  PCGS has graded 52 and NGC 21.  Presumably some duplicates.  Of these 73 grading events, 70 are MS, two AU-58, and this coin.  For the series, this is the only one below "Good" by PCGS while NGC has graded two.

As for my opinion on the coin, it's dreck.  I don't care that it's a five figure coin or quite scarce.  I understand the affordability challenge but don't believe the coin is as hard to buy as the Coin Facts data indicates.  It must have sold elsewhere (by dealers) more often.  If 50 exist, coins in this price range aren't actually that hard to buy, usually coming up for sale at least twice/year and probably more than that.

My opinion on the coin isn't just the quality or the price, though that's part of it.  It's that it looks totally out of place in any probable set of the series.  I'd never buy other very low quality coins of other series either, but at least these look more "normal" and it's not unusual for collectors to put together date, date variety, or type sets in this type of quality for silver or copper US coinage.

I'd also assume this coin would be difficult to sell later, for the price paid.

[World Colonial]

On 8/7/2023 at 4:01 PM, GoldFinger1969 said:

Again....EF or AU vs. MS is one thing....I think that coin is easily affordable to a very wealthy collector but same collector can pay 2-5x as much and get a good-looking one.

If it wants a buyer among the masses, probably needs the price reduced to $15,000 - $25,000.  

JMHO.

Agree

I wouldn't want it at all, but your revised price range would probably find numerous buyers, assuming it doesn't actually sell at the current ask price or somewhere between your prices and the current ask.

[Henri Charriere]

On 8/7/2023 at 6:07 AM, Henri Charriere said:

.... I'm dying to hear what @World Colonial has to say about this. 

(Apparently wires got crossed.  My solicitation for your opinion is solely in regard to the matter of the 1930-S Double Eagle PCGS graded AG-03 CAC, an item of interest introduced by the OP onto this thread about one page back.)

[GoldFinger1969]

On 8/7/2023 at 5:55 PM, World Colonial said:

PCGS Coin Facts records two sales of an MS-63 in 2022 (both at $200K+) with the prior sale before it @ $120K in 2020, also as a '63".  So, it's had a huge price increase.

That's the Covid-19 2020-21 effect when everything -- low-priced and Trophy Coins -- soared in price.  Though, when talking Trophy Coins and 6-figure or up prices, it really is dependent on whether or not you have 2 or more whales who want the coin. 

Just ask our own resident Orca, EC !! 

On 8/7/2023 at 5:55 PM, World Colonial said:

As for my opinion on the coin, it's dreck.I don't care that it's a five figure coin or quite scarce.  I understand the affordability challenge but don't believe the coin is as hard to buy as the Coin Facts data indicates.  It must have sold elsewhere (by dealers) more often.If 50 exist, coins in this price range aren't actually that hard to buy, usually coming up for sale at least twice/year and probably more than that.My opinion on the coin isn't just the quality or the price, though that's part of it.  It's that it looks totally out of place in any probable set of the series.I'd never buy other  very low quality coins of other series either, but at least these look more "normal" and it's not unusual for collectors to put together date, date  variety, or typesets in this type of quality for silver/copper US coinage. I'd also assume this coin would be difficult to sell later, for the price paid.

I agree. 

The only saving grace/weird thing is that the coin CAC'ed.  Is that the lowest grade ever for a CAC sticker ?  Is JA saying the coin maybe should be a few grades higher ? 

 

Edited August 8, 2023 by GoldFinger1969

[GoldFinger1969]

On 8/7/2023 at 5:58 PM, World Colonial said:

Agree  I wouldn't want it at all, but your revised price range would probably find numerous buyers, assuming it doesn't actually sell at the current ask price or somewhere between your prices and the current ask.

The actual grade is so low...and the devices so worn and flattened...unless a dealer knows he has a buyer for this coin to flip, I can't see who would pay that much.  Anybody who collects Saints and knows the 1930-S grade distribution must know for a bit more $$$ he/she can get a much much nicer-looking coin.

This is like being a Ferrari or Porsche collector....and including in your collection a car with multiple dents, dings, and accident hits. 

[GoldFinger1969]

On 8/7/2023 at 6:44 PM, Henri Charriere said:

(Apparently wires got crossed.  My solicitation for your opinion is solely in regard to the matter of the 1930-S Double Eagle PCGS graded AG-03 CAC, an item of interest introduced by the OP onto this thread about one page back.)

Henri, WC did reference the AG-03 CAC 1930-S Saint-Gaudens above. 

Edited August 8, 2023 by GoldFinger1969

[World Colonial]

On 8/7/2023 at 10:29 PM, GoldFinger1969 said:

The actual grade is so low...and the devices so worn and flattened...unless a dealer knows he has a buyer for this coin to flip, I can't see who would pay that much.  Anybody who collects Saints and knows the 1930-S grade distribution must know for a bit more $$$ he/she can get a much much nicer-looking coin.

This is like being a Ferrari or Porsche collector....and including in your collection a car with multiple dents, dings, and accident hits. 

I don't know how the coin came to have its current appearance, but I don't see how it could have been though circulation.  FDR's executive order happened within three years, making it remote that any coin of this date could have circulated enough.  Maybe a pocket piece but it would take a lot of effort to wear it down this much.

The price difference between this one and all others is more than a "bit more", but I agree with your point.  

I know someone has to own every coin, but once it gets past "lunch money" amounts, I've never understood the thinking behind buying any low-quality unattractive coin when for "somewhat more", a (much) better example can be bought.  I suppose it's quantity over quality.  I don't subscribe to the US collecting obsession with one or slightly more TPG eligible label grade increments, but there is a difference with that versus looking at expensive unappealing coins.

[zadok]

On 8/7/2023 at 10:25 PM, GoldFinger1969 said:

That's the Covid-19 2020-21 effect when everything -- low-priced and Trophy Coins -- soared in price.  Though, when talking Trophy Coins and 6-figure or up prices, it really is dependent on whether or not you have 2 or more whales who want the coin. 

Just ask our own resident Orca, EC !! 

I agree. 

The only saving grace/weird thing is that the coin CAC'ed.  Is that the lowest grade ever for a CAC sticker ?  Is JA saying the coin maybe should be a few grades higher ? 

 

...no in both instances...i have cac coins in grades Po-01 n Fr-02...all cac is saying is that its nice for the grade, see my previous comment on if it were a gold bean....

[GoldFinger1969]

WC...maybe it wore down alot in 3 years because it IS gold, much softer than nickel, etc. ?

[World Colonial]

On 8/8/2023 at 11:51 AM, GoldFinger1969 said:

WC...maybe it wore down alot in 3 years because it IS gold, much softer than nickel, etc. ?

Someone else here will know better than I do.

I infer none of these coins circulated extensively even for this short period.

[zadok]

On 8/8/2023 at 1:49 PM, World Colonial said:

Someone else here will know better than I do.

I infer none of these coins circulated extensively even for this short period.

...true, most logical answer as both of us has surmised is that it was a pocket pc for 30-40 years....

[Henri Charriere]

No bids yet as of post-time.  The owner, presumably male [as no member of the fairer sex would have anything to do with something so tawdry, hence the conspicuous absence of comments] should have known he'd have had a better shot at unloading this [Expletive deleted] which has undoubtedly had its creative engraver rotating in his grave, on the appropriate platform: Etsy.

 

 

[GoldFinger1969]

On 7/20/2023 at 2:18 AM, GoldFinger1969 said:

MCMVII Ultra High Relief Clapp/Eliasberg/Bass:  It's up for sale in Part 4 of the Bass sale.  Thanks to Zadok for jogging my memory.   Here's the listing:  https://coins.ha.com/itm/proof-high-relief-double-eagles/1907-20-ultra-high-relief-inverted-edge-lettering-pr69-pcgs-judd-1909-pollock-2003-jd-4-high-r7-pcgs-/a/1363-9082.s?ic4=GalleryView-Thumbnail-071515  Here's articles on the coin:  https://coinweek.com/bass-collection-1907-ultra-high-relief-double-eagle-at-

The coin is now at $2,850,000 with 21 hours left to bid......

Edited August 10, 2023 by GoldFinger1969

[GoldFinger1969]

On 7/20/2023 at 2:18 AM, GoldFinger1969 said:

MCMVII Ultra High Relief Clapp/Eliasberg/Bass:  It's up for sale in Part 4 of the Bass sale.  Thanks to Zadok for jogging my memory.  Here's the listing: https://coins.ha.com/itm/proof-high-relief-double-eagles/1907-20-ultra-high-relief-inverted-edge-lettering-pr69-pcgs-judd-1909-pollock-2003-jd-4-high-r7-pcgs-/a/1363-9082.s?ic4=GalleryView-Thumbnail-071515

Here's articles on the coin: https://coinweek.com/bass-collection-1907-ultra-high-relief-double-eagle-at-heritage/

https://www.numismaticnews.net/us-coins/1907-ultra-high-relief-double-eagle-takes-flight This coin is PR-69.  But I think it COULD be the finest of the MCMVII UHRs because the other PR-69, the Trompeter-Morse coin, was originally graded PR-67 and then got a 2-point upgrade over the years and most grade it PR-67+ or PR-68.  The Bloomfield, "Wall Street Bond Trader", Hein-Simpson, Trompeter-Morse, and Browning coins are the Top 5 but now the Eliasburg/Bass coin might be able to leapfrog them if the 69 grade is legit. The Bloomfield PR-68 CAC w/Inverted Edge Lettering, was bought in April 2021 for $4.1MM by an anonymous buyer.  In December 2021 a PCGS PR-68 CAC went for $4.75 MM as HA sold the coin to GC on behalf of our good friend EC.The Norweb UHR was sold for $3.6 MM in February 2021 and is PF-68 NGC w/Normal Edge Let tering.If the grade on this coin is solid for a 69 or even a strong 68+ (with or without CAC), it could/should go for over $5 MM.  We'll have to see, but UHR's have been hot the last 2 years or so. 

The coin went for $4,320,000 including bp.  I guess that's about par with recent sales, but considering the grade (PF 69) and pedigree (Bass), I thought it might hit the $5 MM mark.

Edited August 11, 2023 by GoldFinger1969

[zadok]

On 8/11/2023 at 9:32 AM, GoldFinger1969 said:

The coin went for $4,320,000 including bp.  I guess that's about par with recent sales, but considering the grade (PF 69) and pedigree (Bass), I thought it might hit the $5 MM mark.

...tied with the Tyrant coin, would be interesting what it sold for???....

[GoldFinger1969]

On 8/11/2023 at 1:54 PM, zadok said:

...tied with the Tyrant coin, would be interesting what it sold for???....

Was that sold publicly or in a private transaction ?  The only other PF69 MCMVII UHR is the Trompeter/Morse coin which JA and others think is more of a 68 or 68+.  Originally, it got a 67 or 67+.

[zadok]

On 8/12/2023 at 10:32 AM, GoldFinger1969 said:

Was that sold publicly or in a private transaction ?  The only other PF69 MCMVII UHR is the Trompeter/Morse coin which JA and others think is more of a 68 or 68+.  Originally, it got a 67 or 67+.

...no clue i just remember seeing it at the ana in chicago couple years ago...proof 69 coin....im sure there is some reference to coins in tyrant collection somewhere....

[GoldFinger1969]

On 8/12/2023 at 10:38 AM, zadok said:

...no clue i just remember seeing it at the ana in chicago couple years ago...proof 69 coin....im sure there is some reference to coins in tyrant collection somewhere....

If it's PF69, must be the Trompeter/Morse coin.

[GoldFinger1969]

SUMMER DOLDRUMS:  Interesting activity in recent weeks for Saint bidding (all PCGS unless otherwise noted and includes bp of ~ 12%).....

• An MS-67 1927 Saint went for $17,400 (includes bp).  Lots of bidders.
• A 1923-D NGC MS-64 CAC Saint went for $2,544
• A 1909 MS-62 NGC Saint went for $3,000.
• An MCMVII High Relief MS-64 Wire Edge went for $36,700.  Lot of bidders.
• An MCMVII High Relief XF-45 Wire Edge went for $9,500.  A few bidders.

ASG stuff is hot, but paying 4 or 5 figures for a $20 DE is tough....so it was interesting to see an Indian Head Double Eagle commemorative from the National Park Foundation go for $190 with PF-70 UC.

 

Edited August 29, 2023 by GoldFinger1969

[GoldFinger1969]

No-Bids:  I continue to see lots of coins going for no-bid.   

Sellers just asking too high a price, esp. for "+" or CAC coins where there was a decent shot in the past to catch an upgrade or a CAC sticker....but now many people feel unless it's CLEARLY undergraded, it's probably already been sent in to PCGS (or NGC) and/or CAC.

Here's what's NOT getting bids:

• A couple of 1928 MS-66+ Saints, one NGC and one PCGS, going no-bid at $4,500 and $4,700 (that's before the bp).
• A 1924 MS-66+ Saint which stood alone at $3,900.
• A 1908 NM MS-67+ Saint got no interest at $10,000.  I believe an MS-68 is $20,000 or more but it was still too high.
• A 1914-D MS-65 Saint no interest at $3,200.

Here's where (multiple) bids did show up:

• An MS-61 MCMVII HR went for $14,700 including bp.
• A 1908 NM MS-67 got 1 bid for $7,700 (w/bp).  I think this MIGHT be a bit high for the grade, will check.  
• An MCMVII HR AU-53 went for $10,800 (w/bp).
• A 1926 MS-67 went for $41,800 (w/bp).
• A 1924 MS-67 went for $12,400 (w/bp).

Anybody bought or sold any Saints lately ?  Thoughts ?

[GoldFinger1969]

Roger's book has MS-65 1924 commons going for about $1,000 on average from 1998-2000 (a bit lower in each year).  Gold was about $350 for most of this period, falling eventually to just below $300 in late-1999/early-2000.

Questions:  First, does anybody recall what high-priced MS-66 or MS-67's were selling for when gold was that cheap ?  Obviously, they would not collapse in price as much as bullion or quasi-bullion coins.  Wonder how much they sold for, if I have to, I'll see if the HA archives has some sales.

Second....the price matrix in the book has MS-60's (pure bullion coin) and MS-63 (right on the cusp) going for about $450-$500 for most of that 1998-2000 time period.  In other words, a decent premium to gold...confirmed by those charts I've posted which showed that premiums tend to not collapse when gold bottoms.  If they did, you'd see Saints selling for $350 or so with a 20% premium which we did NOT see. Would you all agree that those were about the cheapest Saint prices since 1980 ?

[zadok]

On 11/6/2023 at 3:47 PM, GoldFinger1969 said:

Roger's book has MS-65 1924 commons going for about $1,000 on average from 1998-2000 (a bit lower in each year).  Gold was about $350 for most of this period, falling eventually to just below $300 in late-1999/early-2000.

Questions:  First, does anybody recall what high-priced MS-66 or MS-67's were selling for when gold was that cheap ?  Obviously, they would not collapse in price as much as bullion or quasi-bullion coins.  Wonder how much they sold for, if I have to, I'll see if the HA archives has some sales.

Second....the price matrix in the book has MS-60's (pure bullion coin) and MS-63 (right on the cusp) going for about $450-$500 for most of that 1998-2000 time period.  In other words, a decent premium to gold...confirmed by those charts I've posted which showed that premiums tend to not collapse when gold bottoms.  If they did, you'd see Saints selling for $350 or so with a 20% premium which we did NOT see. Would you all agree that those were about the cheapest Saint prices since 1980 ?

...pretty much so cept for the ones i bought for face value....

[Henri Charriere]

On 11/6/2023 at 7:26 PM, zadok said:

...pretty much so cept for the ones i bought for face value....

This assertion, on its face, is suspect.  You've come out with some fairly outrageous statements before, unchallenged, but this one deserves further scrutiny. Since there are records which meticulously reflect the changes in gold price going back several millennia, I am going all-in by upping the ante. Recognizing my reputation lies in tatters and my credibility is shot, I will pose, with Moderation's indulgence, a single question:  To the best of your recollection, what year or years were you able to "purchase" a twenty-dollar gold piece for face value?

If I have overstepped the bounds of professional propriety, I shall surrender my Rising Star status and surrender my commission, forthwith.

[Henri Charriere]

On 8/19/2021 at 2:43 PM, MarkFeld said:

.... And speaking of “what”, what makes this thread “official”.

Funny how I got the same query when I posted my "OFF-TOPIC" thread. Member Mark Feld pointedly stated, the fact I posted off-topic content on it, doesn't make it any less so. My intentions were honorable: why risk derailing a legitimate thread, when combatants can simply agree to disagree elsewhere... on an Off-Topic thread. (The Off-Topic topic thread was taken down w/o notice or fanfare.)  I take full responsibility for Mark Feld's reduced presence on this Forum as well as the departure of Oldhoopster whose classic "Outta Here" post has no equal. I fondly recall his refusal to formally ignore me and, in the heat of the moment, his responding animatedly to a comment from Ricky the Rooster, a figment of my imagination.   I was banished to Siberia on a disciplinary transfer but remain NGC's # 1 fan.

 

Edited November 12, 2023 by Henri Charriere
Gratuitous die-polishing

[zadok]

On 11/11/2023 at 1:07 PM, Henri Charriere said:

Funny how I got the same query when I posted my "OFF-TOPIC" thread.  Mark pointedly stated the fact that I  posted off-topic content on it, doesn't make it any less "off-topic." My intentions were honorable: why risk derailing a legitimate thread, when combatants can simply agree to disagree elsewhere... on an Off-Topic thread. (The Topic was taken down w/o notice or fanfare.)  I take full responsibility for Mark Feld's ubiquitous presence on this Forum as well as the departure of Oldhoopster whose classic "Outta Here" post has no equal. I fondly recall his refusal to formally ignore me and, in the heat of the moment, responding animatedly to a comment from Ricky the Rooster, a figment of my imagination. I was banished to Siberia but remain NGC's # 1 fan.

 

...living in the past is a serious red flag that u r falling behind in the present...theres prob an 800 number for that....

[zadok]

On 11/10/2023 at 6:18 PM, Henri Charriere said:

This assertion, on its face, is suspect.  You've come out with some fairly outrageous statements before, unchallenged, but this one deserves further scrutiny. Since there are records which meticulously reflect the changes in gold price going back several millennia, I am going all-in by upping the ante. Recognizing my reputation lies in tatters and my credibility is shot, I will pose, with Moderation's indulgence, a single question:  To the best of your recollection, what year or years were you able to "purchase" a twenty-dollar gold piece for face value?

If I have overstepped the bounds of professional propriety, I shall surrender my Rising Star status and surrender my commission, forthwith.

...to be specific the year was 1970...i attended an estate sale in western virginia to purchase a pair of virginia made percussion dueling pistols...there was a coin collection in the estate, a type set from approx 1835 to 1935, the auctioneer has added up the face value of the coins n made the statement "that all coins had to start at face value or would not be sold"...i started the bidding at his calculation n was the only bidder...oh for the good old days of pre-internet, pre-cell phones n auction ads in the classified section of local newspapers...i was also successful on the dueling set which i still own....

[GoldFinger1969]

On 8/7/2023 at 1:19 AM, GoldFinger1969 said:

1930-S Double Eagle: Here's something you don't see too often.....an AG-03 CAC for a 1930-S that looks REALLY circulated. 

https://www.greatcollections.com/Coin/1298989/1930-S-Saint-Gaudens-Gold-Double-Eagle-PCGS-AG-03-CAC-Green

I wonder whatever happened to that coin.....