Official Saint-Gaudens/Gold Coin Price Thread 2 2

[GoldFinger1969]

On 11/6/2023 at 7:26 PM, zadok said:

...pretty much so cept for the ones i bought for face value....

Did you mean spot gold value..... ?

 

[zadok]

On 11/11/2023 at 11:37 PM, GoldFinger1969 said:

Did you mean spot gold value..... ?

 

...no face value is face value not melt value...just as yesterday i attended a local estate sale there was a small collection/accumulation of coins n currency...the auctioneer stated that all items needed to meet/exceed face value, e.g. there was a bunch of common circulated $2 bills that no one wanted n no bids at face value n the lot was passed ditto rolls of state quarters...

[GoldFinger1969]

On 11/12/2023 at 9:26 AM, zadok said:

...no face value is face value not melt value...just as yesterday i attended a local estate sale there was a small collection/accumulation of coins n currency...the auctioneer stated that all items needed to meet/exceed face value, e.g. there was a bunch of common circulated $2 bills that no one wanted n no bids at face value n the lot was passed ditto rolls of state quarters...

Would you say these estate auctioners are pretty knowledgeable on the ballpark values for classic coins ?  Or do they consult experts? 

[Henri Charriere]

On 11/11/2023 at 11:35 PM, GoldFinger1969 said:

I wonder whatever happened to that coin.....  

I can assure you I do not have it.  🤣

[zadok]

On 11/12/2023 at 12:12 PM, GoldFinger1969 said:

Would you say these estate auctioners are pretty knowledgeable on the ballpark values for classic coins ?  Or do they consult experts? 

...funny...neither, sometimes they get sold with the tupperware, in some cases i doubt they would recognize classic anything....

[Henri Charriere]

(Another "High-Wire" MCMVII Saint slated for auction at HA shortly...)

[GoldFinger1969]

Interesting comments on Saint pricing from John Albanese. 

It's from late-2022 but I think his Big Picture on Saints is that prices/premiums have/had fallen to the point where you don't need the CAC or CACG endorsement to get VALUE for your purchase if you do your DD:

JA:  "...I’ve had similar conversations about Saint-Gaudens and how strict we are with MS65 here. But I have to tell you, the MS65 Saint-Gaudens prices have come down so low in price for non-CAC coins that I may disagree with the grade, but I don’t disagree with the value. If that’s their standard, that’s their standard. That’s okay.

Interviewer: It’s kind of difficult to get one of those in MS65 these days where Liberty doesn’t look like she lost a knife fight.

JA:  "Yeah. I remember, I bought some. I bought a nice little grouping of them that were not stickered-nice. They’re relatively nice. They weren’t stickered coins and at the time, 64s were $1,950 and 65s were $2,020. I couldn’t believe my eyes when I saw the prices on the screen. At $2,020, I felt very comfortable buying. I would buy a hundred, I bought half a dozen, but I would buy a hundred at that price, because forget the grade, forget everything else, but the fact with gold at $1,650, looking at these coins, I would pay $2,020. Even if they were out of the holder, I’d pay $2,020. So, I didn’t feel as though anything was askew. Again, not my standard, because to me, MS65 means “Gem”...."

 

So basically he's comfortable with 65's trading at a 20-25% premium to gold. 

[zadok]

On 2/27/2024 at 11:55 AM, GoldFinger1969 said:

Interesting comments on Saint pricing from John Albanese. 

It's from late-2022 but I think his Big Picture on Saints is that prices/premiums have/had fallen to the point where you don't need the CAC or CACG endorsement to get VALUE for your purchase if you do your DD:

JA:  "...I’ve had similar conversations about Saint-Gaudens and how strict we are with MS65 here. But I have to tell you, the MS65 Saint-Gaudens prices have come down so low in price for non-CAC coins that I may disagree with the grade, but I don’t disagree with the value. If that’s their standard, that’s their standard. That’s okay.

Interviewer: It’s kind of difficult to get one of those in MS65 these days where Liberty doesn’t look like she lost a knife fight.

JA:  "Yeah. I remember, I bought some. I bought a nice little grouping of them that were not stickered-nice. They’re relatively nice. They weren’t stickered coins and at the time, 64s were $1,950 and 65s were $2,020. I couldn’t believe my eyes when I saw the prices on the screen. At $2,020, I felt very comfortable buying. I would buy a hundred, I bought half a dozen, but I would buy a hundred at that price, because forget the grade, forget everything else, but the fact with gold at $1,650, looking at these coins, I would pay $2,020. Even if they were out of the holder, I’d pay $2,020. So, I didn’t feel as though anything was askew. Again, not my standard, because to me, MS65 means “Gem”...."

 

So basically he's comfortable with 65's trading at a 20-25% premium to gold. 

...not totally relevant to ur comment but came into my mind while reading it...knowing ur obsession  with saints n my thinking that saints r not coins that r aggressively collected, however the number of registry sets do not support my premise...one thing u mite want to consider, r the owners of those sets really numismatical collectors? do they have other collections of coins or r they "one trick ponies" like another member here on the forum that collects only 14 coins?...r they collectors that have big bucks n just want to dabble in the coin collecting world n saints seem to fit what they think a coin collection should look like?...would those same collectors collect 3 cent silver pcs?...i have a couple of friends that collect rare cars n rare bourbons n scotchs n they collect only mexican gold 50 pesos just because they like the size of the coins n like to call themselves coin collectors...just a thought that crossed my mind n i know u like to use the term "serious collectors"...r these registry set saint collectors "serious collectors" or "one trick pony" collectors?...i doubt we will ever know but the question is interesting to me....

[zadok]

On 2/27/2024 at 5:05 PM, Henri Charriere said:

...that's 24, not 14, but who's counting?...the former owner of the unique '33 d.e., also had an inverted jenny 24-cent airmail and a unique british guiana one-cent magenta stamp...oh, and a shoe empire, too... casual or serious, he was, and likely still is, a contender...whether the owner of a single coin or many such trinkets, is irrelevant...some of the most formidable contenders are virtual unknowns, and dwell in anonymity as nameless, faceless entities...

...sad n gets sadder by the day...classic text book...just sad....

[Henri Charriere]

On 2/27/2024 at 5:29 PM, zadok said:

...sad n gets sadder by the day...classic text book...just sad....

Thank you!  If it weren't for that Swift lady, you would undoubtedly be my biggest fan.  🤣

[zadok]

On 2/27/2024 at 5:31 PM, Henri Charriere said:

Thank you!  If it weren't for that Swift lady, you would undoubtedly be my biggest fan.  🤣

...struggling for relevance n trying find something new to say, sad lonely road to travel especially when ill equipped....

[Henri Charriere]

On 2/27/2024 at 5:35 PM, zadok said:

...struggling for relevance n trying find something new to say, sad lonely road to travel especially when ill equipped....

...thanks...the entertainment value alone--judging by your continued interest, is well worth the price of admission...when your pronouncements are recognized, particularly by you, you know you've arrived.  

[zadok]

On 2/27/2024 at 5:43 PM, Henri Charriere said:

...thanks...the entertainment value alone--judging by your continued interest, is well worth the price of admission...when your pronouncements are recognized, particularly by you, you know you've arrived.  

...weak....

[GoldFinger1969]

On 2/27/2024 at 3:47 PM, zadok said:

...not totally relevant to ur comment but came into my mind while reading it...knowing ur obsession  with saints n my thinking that saints r not coins that r aggressively collected, however the number of registry sets do not support my premise...

The big factor with Saints is you are talking about a big 1 ounce coin....so at current market values, you are talking about a floor of about $2,000 to get into the game.  And obviously numismatic-quality coins are mostly in the $2,500 - $4,000 range depending on the rarity and grade.  That explains why many gold afficionados will collect Quarter or Half Eagles instead....MUCH less expensive, right ? 

If you want to get in the game for ASEs, you can buy plenty of stuff for < $100.00.  Not so with Saints or modern AGEs ! 

I can't recall where I read it (Doug Winter's blog ?)...I know I posted it before....but I read where one guestimate was the following:

• About 500 serious registry collectors of Saints.
• About 25,000 serious Type and partial collectors of Saints (I'm in this group ).
• Several hundred thousand buyers for investment purposes only (I used to have clients in this group).  

On 2/27/2024 at 3:47 PM, zadok said:

one thing u mite want to consider, r the owners of those sets really numismatical collectors? do they have other collections of coins or r they "one trick ponies" like another member here on the forum that collects only 14 coins?...r they collectors that have big bucks n just want to dabble in the coin collecting world n saints seem to fit what they think a coin collection should look like?...would those same collectors collect 3 cent silver pcs?...i have a couple of friends that collect rare cars n rare bourbons n scotchs n they collect only mexican gold 50 pesos just because they like the size of the coins n like to call themselves coin collectors...just a thought that crossed my mind n i know u like to use the term "serious collectors"...r these registry set saint collectors "serious collectors" or "one trick pony" collectors?...i doubt we will ever know but the question is interesting to me....

It IS an interesting question, Zad...and you ARE right.  There is no 1-size-fits-all and yes, while the coin type(s) and quantity are limited, I would say your friend who collects the Mexican Gold 50 Pesos IS a collector.  If someone has 5 or 14 or 30 coins but is not ACTIVELY buying/selling/adding to their stash -- numismatic or bullion -- I guess it's a matter of semantics, right ?

I am sure there are lots of people who own 1 or 2 gold coins, maybe a Saint, and haven't bought a coin in years or decades, if at all.  Most likely inheritances.  Certainly, a significant percentage of the MCMVII High Relief coins were originally bought by people who were not serious coin collectors....who knew only it was a "special" coin.....and maybe because it was a coin created by the famous sculptor ASG whose art work they already admired.  I'm not a wine collector or big drinker, but I couldn't resist buying a case of wine when my favorite Met growing up, Tom Seaver, released his vintage wines some 15 years ago. 

Anyway, that MCMVII HR has since most likely been handed down 1 or 2 times.  Is the successor owner a coin collector ?  Probably not....like a person who inherits some family jewelry, they probably keep it for sentimental reasons ("Grandpa owned it" or "my mother gave it to me").  Without these strong hands holders of this coin -- and maybe some others -- the price would probably be much lower. 

We have tons of posts here and elsewhere where folks and dealers say that the MCMVII HR is annually chosen as an "overvalued" coin that trades at much higher prices than it should based on (available) supply...without accounting for the demand for a rare, high relief coin that is unique and has a fantastic story attached to it.  I don't share that view....I think coins reflect (available) supply and demand.  But that "available" supply could be much lower for the MCMVII HR -- and other coins -- and thus accounts for a higher price than what some of you think it should be (I'd be interested in hearing what some of you think an MCMVII HR AU-58, which goes for about $12,000...should cost if supply and demand were more "normal").

Edited February 28 by GoldFinger1969

[zadok]

On 2/28/2024 at 12:51 PM, GoldFinger1969 said:

The big factor with Saints is you are talking about a big 1 ounce coin....so at current market values, you are talking about a floor of about $2,000 to get into the game.  And obviously numismatic-quality coins are mostly in the $2,500 - $4,000 range depending on the rarity and grade.  That explains why many gold afficionados will collect Quarter or Half Eagles instead....MUCH less expensive, right ? 

If you want to get in the game for ASEs, you can buy plenty of stuff for < $100.00.  Not so with Saints or modern AGEs ! 

I can't recall where I read it (Doug Winter's blog ?)...I know I posted it before....but I read where one guestimate was the following:

• About 500 serious registry collectors of Saints.
• About 25,000 serious Type and partial collectors of Saints (I'm in this group ).
• Several hundred thousand buyers for investment purposes only (I used to have clients in this group).  

It IS an interesting question, Zad...and you ARE right.  There is no 1-size-fits-all and yes, while the coin type(s) and quantity are limited, I would say your friend who collects the Mexican Gold 50 Pesos IS a collector.  If someone has 5 or 14 or 30 coins but is not ACTIVELY buying/selling/adding to their stash -- numismatic or bullion -- I guess it's a matter of semantics, right ?

I am sure there are lots of people who own 1 or 2 gold coins, maybe a Saint, and haven't bought a coin in years or decades, if at all.  Most likely inheritances.  Certainly, a significant percentage of the MCMVII High Relief coins were originally bought by people who were not serious coin collectors....who knew only it was a "special" coin.....and maybe because it was a coin created by the famous sculptor ASG whose art work they already admired.  I'm not a wine collector or big drinker, but I couldn't resist buying a case of wine when my favorite Met growing up, Tom Seaver, released his vintage wines some 15 years ago. 

Anyway, that MCMVII HR has since most likely been handed down 1 or 2 times.  Is the successor owner a coin collector ?  Probably not....like a person who inherits some family jewelry, they probably keep it for sentimental reasons ("Grandpa owned it" or "my mother gave it to me").  Without these strong hands holders of this coin -- and maybe some others -- the price would probably be much lower. 

We have tons of posts here and elsewhere where folks and dealers say that the MCMVII HR is annually chosen as an "overvalued" coin that trades at much higher prices than it should based on (available) supply...without accounting for the demand for a rare, high relief coin that is unique and has a fantastic story attached to it.  I don't share that view....I think coins reflect (available) supply and demand.  But that "available" supply could be much lower for the MCMVII HR -- and other coins -- and thus accounts for a higher price than what some of you think it should be (I'd be interested in hearing what some of you think an MCMVII HR AU-58, which goes for about $12,000...should cost if supply and demand were more "normal").

...all u say is viable in the discussion, my main query is whether the owner of lets say a set of saints is representative of the hobby or is he an outlier n skews the metrics...im sure there r many true collectors that only collect one area or denomination of the hobby, large cent collectors come to mind, im just not convinced that most of the saint registry set owners r real collectors or just owners, its not important to the hobby overall just an inquiry...saint collecting is definitely diff than collecting say short foreign bullion sets where the entire set can be assembled in a matter of days n usually in mint state due to the non-circulating of the coins involved, again not important to the overall hobby...my experience is that true collectors collect more than just one area of any hobby....

[GoldFinger1969]

On 2/28/2024 at 2:32 PM, zadok said:

...all u say is viable in the discussion, my main query is whether the owner of lets say a set of saints is representative of the hobby or is he an outlier n skews the metrics...im sure there r many true collectors that only collect one area or denomination of the hobby, large cent collectors come to mind, im just not convinced that most of the saint registry set owners r real collectors or just owners, its not important to the hobby overall just an inquiry...saint collecting is definitely diff than collecting say short foreign bullion sets where the entire set can be assembled in a matter of days n usually in mint state due to the non-circulating of the coins involved, again not important to the overall hobby...my experience is that true collectors collect more than just one area of any hobby....

You probably have some MCMVII HR and/or Saint and/or gold or silver HOLDERS....who never add to their holdings....never look at them....don't know what a slab is (unless they inherited one)....and are never on forums like this.   I agree.  We won't see or hear about their coins until they die and their estate/kids/beneficiaries liquidate the holdings. 

You've said -- and Kurt backs it up with his PA excursions -- that lots of people purchased raw coins and/or inherited them and they are sitting in safes, garages, or SDBs.  Again, I agree.

It might only be 5-20% of the current population grades for some coins...but that is ALOT of coins for those coins/grades that have seen no or little movement in the population census in years/decades.

I agree:  true collectors are ACTIVE and are involved in more than 1 coin type.  But lots of people are just coin or bullion HOLDERS -- not collecting, not buying, not selling, not active -- especially for older collectors and/or their estate inheritors.

Edited February 28 by GoldFinger1969

[GoldFinger1969]

On 8/7/2023 at 1:19 AM, GoldFinger1969 said:

1930-S Double Eagle: Here's something you don't see too often.....an AG-03 CAC for a 1930-S that looks REALLY circulated. 

https://www.greatcollections.com/Coin/1298989/1930-S-Saint-Gaudens-Gold-Double-Eagle-PCGS-AG-03-CAC-Green  I'm kind of surprised that it goes for about the asking price of $60,000 maybe a bit less....I would think that any serious collector who can afford that amount will just pay up 2-3x to get one closer to EF or AU.  Do people really go down that far in quality for Saints and other valuable coins ?

It's up for sale again and this time at a lower price it's going to sell.  Currently at $41,000:

https://www.greatcollections.com/Coin/1535615/

"This coin is an exceptionally rare date - and out of all of the late date rarities, 1931, 1931-D, 1932 - the 1930-S is by far the rarest.  Over the past few years, we have seen the 1930-S break away from the other rarities, as it is now being appreciated more.

During the great depression, it is amazing someone kept this coin as a pocket piece.  There is not a single 1930-S graded below AU-58 by PCGS or NGC, except this coin."

 

Edited March 9 by GoldFinger1969

[Henri Charriere]

Without further ado, I move the membership recognize this exceptional example, in grade and price, as the undisputed "King of the Low-Balls."      

[GoldFinger1969]

13 bidders on that coin in total, including the Stink Bidders ...7 of them willing to pay over $20,000.  The rest dropped out once it hit $5,000.

NOBODY bid previously at $60,000.  Which just proves what my friend The Bonddaddy always says:  there are no bad coins, only bad prices !! 

Edited March 9 by GoldFinger1969

[zadok]

On 3/9/2024 at 11:37 PM, Henri Charriere said:

...pardon my impertinence, but are you a collector?... if so, what do you collect?....minus the occasional, purposely vague reference to this or that, a staged stock photo of a collection of pallets bearing bricks w/o identifying marks and grandiose statements about supposed close friends and associates presented anonymously without substantiaton, including spurious claims of outrageous returns on sedentary investments which cannot be proved or disproved, the congregation is expected to accept as gospel truth and unassailable fact the wordof a scrap dealer speaking tactically from on high in broad generalities about collecting, an activity he has yet to offer evidence he may or may not be engaged in using grandiose definitions of his own made ostensibly for his own purposes. If one were one were ask another membert, not one can offer an explanation of this subject"s specific area of interest(s) much less a Set Registry, beyond stacked wooden pallets. He has alleged to have posted a photo of a single coin in the many years he has been a member. Any challenge made of his claim to fame is met with a standard boiler-plate reply of "not important" or lacking the dignity ot a response, dispatching same with an emoji or suggestion the member suffers from an unspecified psychiatric disorder. Two weeks ago, a fellow member requested he cite the source of his information. He characteristically remained mute. It takes a big man to own up to his mistakes.

Posted at the discretion of Moderation. 

...and the brook keeps on babbling...the sadness continues, one would think the moderators mite encourage professional help in such cases but every court needs its jester....

[Henri Charriere]

On 3/10/2024 at 10:33 PM, zadok said:

...and the brook keeps on babbling...the sadness continues, one would think the moderators mite encourage professional help in such cases but every court needs its jester....

AUSA:  Your Honor, I object!  I ask that you direct opposing counsel to instruct the witness to be more responsive.

THE COURT:  Objection sustained. I order the witness testimony be stricken from the record and the jury to disregard it.  

[GoldFinger1969]

On 7/10/2022 at 11:29 PM, Cat Bath said:

Is it just me or do these kind of "True Views" look like they don't show any luster ?

The new GC pics look pretty good.  BuffaloHead's pic above also shows shine and luster.

[Fenntucky Mike]

On 3/14/2024 at 2:59 PM, GoldFinger1969 said:

Is it just me or do these kind of "True Views" look like they don't show any luster ?

The new GC pics look pretty good.  BuffaloHead's pic above also shows shine and luster.

The images from PCGS and NGC that I've viewed lately have been, for the most part, gawd awful. The GC images blow them away imo.

Edited March 14 by Fenntucky Mike

[GoldFinger1969]

BTW....the 1930-S Saint went for a total of just under $60,000 INCLUDING bp !!

So the initial listing asking for $60,000 wasn't that far off the mark, it was the commission that pushed it too high for bidders.   8 bidders were willing to pay $20K or more.

[GoldFinger1969]

Recent Saint Sales:  A PCGS MS-67 Saint went for $9,600 including bp.  Prices had been over $10K during Covid.  The only other Saint in MS-67 that is cheaper is the 1908 NM.

A PCGS 1910-D in MS-66 sold for $9,700 including bp.

This was surprising....an MCMVII HR AU-55 Details ANACS coin sold for $8,000, all-in.  And an AU-58 Details went for $9,600.  

A 1908 NM MS-65 CACG sold for just over $3,000.  Interesting, as Artie Johnson used to say....

Finally... a bunch of National Park Foundation Commemoratives using various ASG themes and images had multiple issues in Gem Proof sell for about 5-7% over spot gold which IMO is pretty good for the buyers.   And a 1995-W ASE PR70-DCAM sold for just over $12,300.

[Henri Charriere]

On 2/28/2024 at 2:32 PM, zadok said:

...all u say is viable in the discussion, my main query is whether the owner of lets say a set of saints is representative of the hobby or is he an outlier n skews the metrics...

im sure there r many true collectors that only collect one area or denomination of the hobby....

im just not convinced that most of the saint registry set owners r real collectors or just owners,...

saint collecting is definitely diff than collecting say short foreign bullion sets where the entire set can be assembled in a matter of days n usually in mint state due to the non-circulating of the coins involved,..

my experience is that true collectors collect more than just one area of any hobby....

Granted, dated post where things move at warp speed.  By strict definition, I do not qualify as a collector.  Judging by the number of coins I have in my constructive possession, 24, I am neither a hoarder or accumulator. I do not believe I can even be termed a coin enthusiast anymore. The line of Saints appeals to a certain collector, like set registrants, with a large disposable income or unassigned assets. The above reasoning, set forth as such, comes close as one early can to identifying the type of collector I would envision a Saint enthusiast as being.  In succeeding posts focused on the '30-S low-ball, I would imagine the original owner, acquired it possibly for sentimental reasons as the ideal lucky pocket piece for quite some time, hence, my believe the original piece, clearly devoid of distracting damage, was carried by someone, at the height of the Great depression for no no ther reason than he could. It's too bad his real motive, and that of others prior to the advent of TPGS, is the real untold story here.  Many valid points raised here. A laudable attempt is made to define who collects these coins -- and why.  Unclear as to who "owns" the rights to this story now unfolding on.paralled threads, but it would clearly make for some fascinating reading to those predisposed to learning more about the history of a coin that has captured the minds of a select group of collectors who have realized there are never going to be enough finite pieces with sought-after attributes to supply insatiable demand.

I am truly sorry I missed my calling in life as an unpredictable philanthropist.

[zadok]

On 4/18/2024 at 6:10 AM, Henri Charriere said:

Granted, dated post where things move at warp speed.  By strict definition, I do not qualify as a collector.  Judging by the number of coins I have in my constructive possession, 24, I am neither a hoarder or accumulator. I do not believe I can even be termed a coin enthusiast anymore. The line of Saints appeals to a certain collector, like set registrants, with a large disposable income or unassigned assets. The above reasoning, set forth as such, comes close as one early can to identifying the type of collector I would envision a Saint enthusiast as being.  In succeeding posts focused on the '30-S low-ball, I would imagine the original owner, acquired it possibly for sentimental reasons as the ideal lucky pocket piece for quite some time, hence, my believe the original piece, clearly devoid of distracting damage, was carried by someone, at the height of the Great depression for no no ther reason than he could. It's too bad his real motive, and that of others prior to the advent of TPGS, is the real untold story here.  Many valid points raised here. A laudable attempt is made to define who collects these coins -- and why.  Unclear as to who "owns" the rights to this story now unfolding on.paralled threads, but it would clearly make for some fascinating reading to those predisposed to learning more about the history of a coin that has captured the minds of a select group of collectors who have realized there are never going to be enough finite pieces with sought-after attributes to supply insatiable demand.

I am truly sorry I missed my calling in life as an unpredictable philanthropist.

...so many words n space to say nothing...sad....