Gold Coins of Europe 2 2

[J P M]

My daughter found this for me today, She thought I would like it 

[Alex in PA.]

Old books are good books.  You'll have some nice reading.  

[J P M]

Well it is not a reading book it is more like a Redbook with countries of origin , photos of coins with prices of different coin dates. A time in history when you needed a book to keep track of coin values.  LoL   

[J P M]

I forgot to mention the book was published in 1968 for the price of $15 My daughter paid $2   

[Oldhoopster]

One can never have enough coin books 

[Henri Charriere]

@Oldhoopster. I am ashamed to say I no longer own a single copy of a coin book, newspaper, journal, tract, or advertisement.

[Henri Charriere]

On 7/26/2021 at 6:29 PM, J P Mashoke said:

My daughter found this for me today, She thought I would like it 

@J P Mashoke

I have a feeling the book your daughter bought for you was opened, propped up and photographed specifically to taunt me.  

In all fairness, I must admit you have succeeded beyond your wildest dreams.

Technically, the 1907-1914 line are called "restrikes." The French call them "rrdistributed" coins and note some were minted in 1921 with the rest minted during the 1950's and 1960's.  That page, which does not provide mintage figures for 1907-1910, only deepens the mystery.  In fact the entire Rooster series, whatever the reason, is shrouded in mystery.

I am greatly indebted to you for providing yet another glimpse of this enduring mystery.   🐓

[Jason Abshier]

@Quintus Arrius remember other week I posted up the 1945 “restrike”Mexican 2 peso gold … same thing there no mintage data about the restrike . I guess it was a common practice for the mint not to “re-count” how many coins they pulled out of circulation to restrike them to give an accurate mintage … some coins series have that mintage restrike count and some don’t 

[J P M]

On 8/3/2021 at 7:40 PM, Quintus Arrius said:

@J P Mashoke

I have a feeling the book your daughter bought for you was opened, propped up and photographed specifically to taunt me.  

In all fairness, I must admit you have succeeded beyond your wildest dreams.

Technically, the 1907-1914 line are called "restrikes." The French call them "rrdistributed" coins and note some were minted in 1921 with the rest minted during the 1950's and 1960's.  That page, which does not provide mintage figures for 1907-1910, only deepens the mystery.  In fact the entire Rooster series, whatever the reason, is shrouded in mystery.

I am greatly indebted to you for providing yet another glimpse of this enduring mystery.   🐓

 I did pick that page for you Quintus in hopes that you would like it...I can take some more photo's and post them here if you would like to see more of those pages Quintus, remember it is a Redbook from 1968 mostly just prices and photo's

Edited August 4, 2021 by J P Mashoke

[GoldFinger1969]

Did Europeans like to hold American gold coins because there was distrust over their own countries quality or honesty in producing gold coins ?    Anybody got any thoughts ?

It seems like either European banks or European dealers or Europeans themselves liked having Liberty's and Saints as opposed to their non-circulating among the public here in the States.

[VKurtB]

On 8/3/2021 at 9:00 PM, GoldFinger1969 said:

Did Europeans like to hold American gold coins because there was distrust over their own countries quality or honesty in producing gold coins ?    Anybody got any thoughts ?

It seems like either European banks or European dealers or Europeans themselves liked having Liberty's and Saints as opposed to their non-circulating among the public here in the States.

The Latin Currency Union fell apart partially because countries started cheating on the gold purity in their respective coins. Maybe that explains the appreciation of the American pieces.

[RWB]

The only US gold coins that were found in quantities in Europe were double eagles - and that was only because of size. Sovereigns, Francs, Lira, Napoleons (actually Roosters) were the most commonly saved by individuals, commercial banks, and central banks. Pure gold content was all that mattered.

In the middle-East and elsewhere, U.S. gold coins were rarely seen.

"During the weeks prior to the Allied invasion of North Africa on November 8, 1942 (Operation Torch), G-2 expert General Mark Clark carried one hundred Louis d’or coins as he and his small party secretly traveled to Algeria in North Africa. They met with Vichy officials including General Charles Mast, the French commander-in-chief in Algiers. The gold was used to bribe local Vichy officials and helped Clark determine if the Americans would be welcomed as liberators or opposed as invaders.

Another use for gold coins was in escape kits carried by Allied aircraft during missions in North Africa and the Middle East. During the initial phase of Operation Torch, $700,000 in gold was authorized for use by the Twelfth Air Force in the kits and by General George Patton to reward native informers for speedy performance of essential services where natives would not accept paper currency.[1]"

---

[1] Rundell. p.118. The French gold coins were likely “Roosters” of 20 and 40 Francs, not technically the earlier Louis issues.

Edited August 4, 2021 by RWB

[Conder101]

On 8/3/2021 at 7:40 PM, Quintus Arrius said:

That page, which does not provide mintage figures for 1907-1910, only deepens the mystery.

It doesn't list mintage for the restrikes.  Possibly because they could have still been restriking them?

 

On 8/3/2021 at 8:30 PM, Jason Abshier said:

I guess it was a common practice for the mint not to “re-count” how many coins they pulled out of circulation to restrike them to give an accurate mintage

They didn't pull coins out of circulation, they just made new backdated coins with no restrictions as to when they made them.  They could and been making all the restrike dates at the same time.

 

On 8/3/2021 at 10:00 PM, GoldFinger1969 said:

It seems like either European banks or European dealers or Europeans themselves liked having Liberty's and Saints

Larger coins.  Hold one double eagle or 4 sovereigns or roosters or 8 half sovereigns etc.  The large size of the eagles and double eagles made them more convenient for holding/counting.  Same reason back in the late 18th/early 19th century the banks in the US wanted their deposited silver struck into dollars and then later half dollars after the dollar was discontinued.  Deposited gold they mostly wanted half eagles or eagles.  They weren't that interested in quarter eagles.

[Jason Abshier]

On 8/4/2021 at 7:37 PM, Conder101 said:

They didn't pull coins out of circulation, they just made new backdated coins with no restrictions as to when they made them.  They could and been making all the restrike dates at the same time.

Thanks for clearing that up @Conder101 I learned something new today . I always thought the mint took older worn down gold or silver coins out of circulation to refined them and make restrikes however I knew restrikes were not to be used for circulation or confused with value of an original coins in the series but more rather than a bullion coin for investment purposes  

[VKurtB]

Yes, in its own way, Quintus’ set is not much different from building a set of modern bullion coins. Same thing. Never meant to actually circulate. Why else do you imagine so many European 20 Whatever coins are out there is such good conditions? These things seldom were used in commerce. 

[RWB]

On 8/4/2021 at 7:37 PM, Conder101 said:

They didn't pull coins out of circulation, they just made new backdated coins with no restrictions as to when they made them.  They could and been making all the restrike dates at the same time.

Hopefully you were teasing. There was an extensive program for recoining light weight and mutilated gold and silver US coins. Coins were sorted by denomination, not date/mint. The non-legal tender pieces were melted and struck into coin of the current year. There was no back-dating of US circulation coins. Mintage figures are correct - but what happens after minting is up to the marketplace and circulation.

Edited August 5, 2021 by RWB

[VKurtB]

On 8/4/2021 at 8:44 PM, RWB said:

Hopefully you were teasing. There was an extensive program for recoining light weight and mutilated gold and silver US coins. Coins were sorted by denomination, not date/mint. The non-legal tender pieces were melted and struck into coin of the current year. There was no mack-dating of US circulation coins. Mintage figures are correct - but what happens after minting is up to the marketplace and circulation.

I think the “universe” being discussed was French 20Fr. I could be wrong. 

[Henri Charriere]

Gentlemen, like I once said, the entire history of the French 20-franc gold roosters -- known and referred to by a variety of names is shrouded in mystery.  

There is no question as to the series minted from 1899-1906 referred to, apparently by all concerned, as the "original" gold roosters.  After that, things become hazy. Americans refer to the 1907-1914, as "restrikes" though at least one reference I consulted referred to them as "redistributed."

A variety exists, akin to finding the Lincoln Memorial on a 1958 cent, but is rarely discussed. @VKurtB is correct in implying the "originals" were used in general commerce and the later ones as a convenient store of bullion.  Any roosters sold in quantity (as at AMPEX, et al.) are all, without exception, the newer "restrikes."  In the absence of evidence suggesting otherwise, I am inclined to believe the Mighty Conder's hypothesis.  😉  🐓

[GoldFinger1969]

Kinda sad that an accurate historical account of the Rooster is not available as with our Liberty's and Saints. 

[VKurtB]

On 8/4/2021 at 11:50 PM, GoldFinger1969 said:

Kinda sad that an accurate historical account of the Rooster is not available as with our Liberty's and Saints. 

Or at least a string of guesses and assumptions is.  Oh, if only they could talk. They’d be able to describe in exquisite detail the inside of Swiss (and other nations’) safe deposit boxes. Ooh, I tremble in ill-concealed anticipation.

Edited August 5, 2021 by VKurtB

[Henri Charriere]

On 8/5/2021 at 12:50 AM, GoldFinger1969 said:

Kinda sad that an accurate historical account of the Rooster is not available as with our Liberty's and Saints. 

If it were, with my luck, it would be written in impenetrable highfalutin French.

[RWB]

On 8/5/2021 at 12:32 PM, Quintus Arrius said:

If it were, with my luck, it would be written in impenetrable highfalutin French.

If you find it, let me know. One of my daughters taught in France and is fluent in regular, technical, and "highfalutin" French. She can translate for you - for a fee, of course.

[jtryka]

On 8/3/2021 at 10:00 PM, GoldFinger1969 said:

Did Europeans like to hold American gold coins because there was distrust over their own countries quality or honesty in producing gold coins ?    Anybody got any thoughts ?

It seems like either European banks or European dealers or Europeans themselves liked having Liberty's and Saints as opposed to their non-circulating among the public here in the States.

I don't think trust was an issue, as mints issuing non-spec coins would cause them not to be accepted globally.  I think banks holding double eagles or foreign treasuries holding them had more to do with trade flows and the ease of handling a larger coin vs smaller (handling one coin with 0.9675 oz of gold vs. 20F coins at 0.1875 oz per coin.  As for usage, remember the Latin Monetary Union made most of these coins interchangable since they had the same gold content (France, Switzerland, Belgium, Italy), while other countries had fixed exchange rates as well.  So from a reserve standpoint, I'm not sure they looked at domestic coins differently than dollars, outside of their need for use in commerce (which likely was taken up mainly by silver and subsidiary coinage).  At least that's one man's opinion.

[RWB]

Yep.

[Conder101]

On 8/4/2021 at 8:25 PM, Jason Abshier said:

I always thought the mint took older worn down gold or silver coins out of circulation to refined them and make restrikes 

Years ago when gold and silver coins actually circulated the mints would withdraw  worn coins and recoin them, but they were recoined as the current years coins, not as restrikes of older or their original dates.  Restrikes were usually a way to sell bullion not to recoin worn pieces for circulation

 

On 8/4/2021 at 9:44 PM, RWB said:

Hopefully you were teasing.

The restriking discussion was about French Roosters or Mexican restrike 2 peso.

Edited August 6, 2021 by Conder101

[J P M]

There is a note saying the color changed after a restrike to a more red color. Hmm.. Red Roosters

[RWB]

Restriking roosters or sovereigns, etc. served the same purpose as Maria Theresa crowns. Additionally, British restrikes in 1947 were intended to establish the currency of the bullion tokens and reinforce the ability to prosecute counterfeiters.

[Henri Charriere]

On 8/6/2021 at 6:46 AM, J P Mashoke said:

There is a note saying the color changed after a restrike to a more red color. Hmm.. Red Roosters

The visual discrepancy is due to the tinkering of their gold, silver and copper content.

[RWB]

On 8/6/2021 at 9:58 AM, Quintus Arrius said:

The visual discrepancy is due to the tinkering of their gold, silver and copper content.

How so? What was done?

[Henri Charriere]

On 8/6/2021 at 10:56 AM, RWB said:

How so? What was done?

I anticipated this question and I do not have a definitive answer beyond 🐓 in general are 90% gold and 10% copper.

The older "original" 🐓 are noticeably darker (much like old wheaties) with certified MS grades beyond 64 for each of the years from 1899 to 1905 so scarce they can be counted on one hand (with the exception of 1906, of which, over two dozen have been certified in varying grades up to, but not including, MS-67.

By contrast, the "restrikes," or "redistributed" 🐓 reflect the bright yellow color of U.S. gold bullion coinage certified up to, but not including, MS-68.

Why a change in alloy was made is generally attributed to war but until I can get my hands on a single authoritative source, the mystery surrounding this last in a long line of French 20-franc coins will endure.