1793 2 reale Spanish 0

[Greenstang]

Tomorrow when I get time, I will do a side by side to show some of the differences on both sides to prove it is counterfeit.        
I don’t state that a coin is counterfeit unless I am 100% sure. I have reported and had removed by eBay hundreds of coins and never had one rejected yet.

[Yves85]

Couple things:

1: The 10 post daily limit for new members stinks. I understand why... but it still stinks. I will have to make these count.

2: I never really questioned it's authenticity. It has the right silver content, the right weight, it is the right size, it was found in the right place, at the right depth, with other objects from the right time period, by a guy who's been metal detecting a long time. I guess It could be a contemporary counterfeit, though I have found a few of those too in my day, and the ones I find are usually badly corroded as they were made from pewter (images attached of those). If it is however, I would love to know (that's why I'm here). I'd be happy with such a nice contemporary counterfeit to be honest so may the truth be known! One thing it absolutely isn't is a modern counterfeit, that's a fact. I don't need to be a coin expert to know beyond a reasonable doubt that this is an old, silver coin.

Did everybody miss the link to the video of this coin actually being dug lol?

Also Thank you everybody for the interests and responses! Good community with a sense of Humour... that crack about Charles' @#$% grin made me chuckle!

Cheers!

 

 

Images dug contemporary counterfeits

Edited July 19, 2021 by Yves85
Typos

[Yves85]

On 7/18/2021 at 12:09 PM, Jason Abshier said:

That “3” if you look closely again it could be wear from old circulation and sitting in dirt … 

 

This is exactly the reason I posted the coin, I never saw that detail. Very interesting, good contribution!

[Yves85]

On 7/18/2021 at 10:19 PM, Greenstang said:

Tomorrow when I get time, I will do a side by side to show some of the differences on both sides to prove it is counterfeit.        
I don’t state that a coin is counterfeit unless I am 100% sure. I have reported and had removed by eBay hundreds of coins and never had one rejected yet.

Looking forward to it.

I'm certainly not an expert on coins, however wouldn't small differences between coins of the same denomination and year be expected with this type of coin even from the same mint due to the different dies or whatever? If all you're doing is pointing out small differences, then wouldn't that only prove that the dies were different? I'd much sooner accept a picture of a proven counterfeit that matches mine than what you've suggested.

And again, I'm no expert, but if what you're proposing counts as proof around here, then please direct me to any and all of your posts where you have posted similar coins from your collection, so that I can "proove" them all fakes with "100% certainty"!

The burden of proof is on you here and you're slipping... dazzle me!

Dukes up, Greenstang!

Edited July 19, 2021 by Yves85
typos

[Jason Abshier]

@Yves85 I haven’t look at a whole lot of Spanish reales , I do collect a lot of old world coins though I often see Spanish reales for sale , back then the dies were casted and hand engraved so no dies were perfect and no 2 dies look even close to the same also the planchets were may have been casted as well back then. You’ll be surprised how much counterfeiting goes on in our coin collecting hobby . You’d think they would make an expensive “fake” coin to pass on to make a lot money off it , that’s not always the case they even make low end “common” fake coins as well … I don’t suspect your coin as a fake looks legit to me I mean who would take the time make a fake then bury it under the ground ? But again Spanish reales aren’t really my background of collecting I don’t own any in my collection either but I have handled a few and looked at them in the past 

Also my Bad that is not KM#430.2

It appears to be a Guatemala 2 reales KM# 51 

https://www.ngccoin.com/price-guide/world/guatemala-2-reales-km-51-1790-1807-cuid-1118611-duid-1332487

Edited July 19, 2021 by Jason Abshier

[Alex in PA.]

On 7/18/2021 at 11:41 PM, Yves85 said:

1: The 10 post daily limit for new members stinks. I understand why... but it still stinks. I will have to make these count.

Could you please tell me where I can find this rule?  I've never heard this before.  Show me.  

Edited July 19, 2021 by Alex in PA.

[Greenstang]

It is possible for a counterfeit, contemporary or not, to be made from silver, same as there are many counterfeit  sovereigns made from gold out there.

Even taking into account variations in older coins, there are still areas that can be looked at in determining if it is genuine or not. I will try to explain what I look for in determining the originality of a coin.

One of the first places I look at is the date. For some reason counterfeiters cannot seem to get this right. Looking at the photos, you can see a definite difference in the style and location of the counterfeit compared to the genuine one.

Another good place to look is the location of the peremiter lettering in relationship to the devises .Notice the difference of the location of the "R" in relationship to the ribbon, not even close.

There is usually a difference in facial features, especially the eyes, they never seem to get them right.

The style of the lettering is another good place to look. Notice the difference in the top of the "T" and the difference in the thickness of some of the lettering.

Sometimes there are slight differences in the design itself See how the end of the ribbon one coin points up while on the other it points on an angle. Also see how the wreath on one coin has a gap between it and the rim while the other coin has the wreath almost touching.

These are just  some of the things to look for but the best way when checking for counterfeits is to compare your coin with a known genuine coin.

 

[Greenstang]

Just found this interesting article on where some of the 2 real counterfeits were produced.

[Jason Abshier]

@Greenstang it is possible it’s a Guatemala 2 reales they look a little differently than regular Spanish colony 2 reales KM 51 

[Yves85]

On 7/19/2021 at 10:26 AM, Greenstang said:

It is possible for a counterfeit, contemporary or not, to be made from silver, same as there are many counterfeit  sovereigns made from gold out there.

Even taking into account variations in older coins, there are still areas that can be looked at in determining if it is genuine or not. I will try to explain what I look for in determining the originality of a coin.

One of the first places I look at is the date. For some reason counterfeiters cannot seem to get this right. Looking at the photos, you can see a definite difference in the style and location of the counterfeit compared to the genuine one.

Another good place to look is the location of the peremiter lettering in relationship to the devises .Notice the difference of the location of the "R" in relationship to the ribbon, not even close.

There is usually a difference in facial features, especially the eyes, they never seem to get them right.

The style of the lettering is another good place to look. Notice the difference in the top of the "T" and the difference in the thickness of some of the lettering.

Sometimes there are slight differences in the design itself See how the end of the ribbon one coin points up while on the other it points on an angle. Also see how the wreath on one coin has a gap between it and the rim while the other coin has the wreath almost touching.

These are just  some of the things to look for but the best way when checking for counterfeits is to compare your coin with a known genuine coin.

 

I'm not gonna lie you make a strong argument. Might very well be an older counterfeit!

Doubts still remain for me to be 100% convinced... I'm still leaning on genuine. Show me a proven fake if you can find one.

Do numismatists ever worry that fake coins are getting passed as genuine and vice versa? It must happen all the time

Edited July 19, 2021 by Yves85

[Yves85]

On 7/19/2021 at 10:50 AM, Greenstang said:

Just found this interesting article on where some of the 2 real counterfeits were produced.

Can we see images of those fakes? That would convince me beyond a reasonable doubt of your claim.

[Yves85]

On 7/19/2021 at 10:56 AM, Jason Abshier said:

@Greenstang it is possible it’s a Guatemala 2 reales they look a little differently than regular Spanish colony 2 reales KM 51 

Mine was minted in Lima, Peru I think. Allegedly

[Jason Abshier]

On 7/19/2021 at 10:11 AM, Yves85 said:

Do numismatists ever worry that fake coins are getting passed as genuine and vice versa? It must happen all the time

Yes , us numismatic collectors hate FAKES ! there actually a forum on here from NGC graders explaining some the fakes they see come through the grading process , these graders looks at thousands and thousands more than you and I would have ever looked at in our life time . The graders are pretty good at spotting Fake coins VS the real thing 

[Yves85]

On 7/19/2021 at 8:03 AM, Jason Abshier said:

@Yves85 I haven’t look at a whole lot of Spanish reales , I do collect a lot of old world coins though I often see Spanish reales for sale , back then the dies were casted and hand engraved so no dies were perfect and no 2 dies look even close to the same also the planchets were may have been casted as well back then. You’ll be surprised how much counterfeiting goes on in our coin collecting hobby . You’d think they would make an expensive “fake” coin to pass on to make a lot money off it , that’s not always the case they even make low end “common” fake coins as well … I don’t suspect your coin as a fake looks legit to me I mean who would take the time make a fake then bury it under the ground ? But again Spanish reales aren’t really my background of collecting I don’t own any in my collection either but I have handled a few and looked at them in the past 

Also my Bad that is not KM#430.2

It appears to be a Guatemala 2 reales KM# 51 

https://www.ngccoin.com/price-guide/world/guatemala-2-reales-km-51-1790-1807-cuid-1118611-duid-1332487

I am in agreement with you about the fact that these old Spanish coins, as far as I know, were all made by hand engraved dies, therefore, there will always be differences.

The mint place of this particular coin is Lima, and they were particularly crude in my experience. 

Edited July 19, 2021 by Yves85

[Jason Abshier]

@Yves85 hers the forum on here entirely devoted to Fake coinage you can see it for yourself a lot a good information about fakes 

https://www.ngccoin.com/boards/forum/91-counterfeit-coins/

[Yves85]

On 7/19/2021 at 8:39 AM, Alex in PA. said:

Could you please tell me where I can find this rule?  I've never heard this before.  Show me.  

I haven't either. I learned it when my "reply" and "quote" buttons disappeared after 10 posts... so I tried to PM someone about it, and after the first PM, I got a notice saying I had reached my daily maximum or something of the sort.

[Woods020]

I know you said you had it tested and came back silver, but just for arguments sake have you simply tried to see if a magnet is attracted to it? A strong magnet preferably. 

[Yves85]

On 7/19/2021 at 2:08 PM, Woods020 said:

I know you said you had it tested and came back silver, but just for arguments sake have you simply tried to see if a magnet is attracted to it? A strong magnet preferably. 

I had never tried this because I never questioned its authenticity before, and also because it has the sound of a silver coin, you know what I mean.

I just tried it and the magnet has no discernable attraction to it.

Also I don't know how familiar you are with Minelab metal detectors, but I can generally tell before I break the ground if what I'm digging is a silver coin by the tone and the VID on the display. And this coin behaved exactly as all silver coins do.

Edited July 19, 2021 by Yves85
concision

[VKurtB]

On 7/19/2021 at 12:26 PM, Yves85 said:

I had never tried this because I never questioned its authenticity before, and also because it has the sound of a silver coin, you know what I mean.

I just tried it and the magnet has no discernable attraction to it.

Also I don't know how familiar you are with Minelab metal detectors, but I can generally tell before I break the ground if what I'm digging is a silver coin by the tone and the VID on the display. And this coin behaved exactly as all silver coins do.

Now do you see the reason for my popcorn quip on page 1? It always seems to be this way. It is nigh onto impossible to have an older Spanish coin that is NOT controversial at some level. 

[Yves85]

On 7/19/2021 at 5:11 PM, VKurtB said:

Now do you see the reason for my popcorn quip on page 1? It always seems to be this way. It is nigh onto impossible to have an older Spanish coin that is NOT controversial at some level. 

Haha! It was great... I'm still not convinced it is a cc though, but haven't ruled it out! I would really like to find an axample of those NY counterfeits to compare. Either way it's a beautiful coin.

It was found on a property of a prominent loyalist that moved to from Massachusetts to New Brunswick after the Rev war so it sort of fits with it being a CC or a genuine one too.

Edited July 19, 2021 by Yves85
add

[James Zyskowski]

Cc is generally associated with Carson City mint🤓  Now that’s an usual coin

Edited July 19, 2021 by James Zyskowski

[Yves85]

On 7/19/2021 at 8:12 PM, James Zyskowski said:

Cc is generally associated with Carson City mint🤓

Ah thanks! I thought myself clever abreviating contemporary counterfeit.

[VKurtB]

On 7/19/2021 at 5:23 PM, Yves85 said:

Haha! It was great... I'm still not convinced it is a cc though, but haven't ruled it out! I would really like to find an axample of those NY counterfeits to compare. Either way it's a beautiful coin.

It was found on a property of a prominent loyalist that moved to from Massachusetts to New Brunswick after the Rev war so it sort of fits with it being a CC or a genuine one too.

I am soooo no expert, but isn’t that a bit far north for Spanish? I would expect to see French or English. But again, not my wheelhouse. 

[J P M]

I wonder .  a loyalist from Mass maybe.. Edward Winslow

[Yves85]

On 7/19/2021 at 9:41 PM, J P Mashoke said:

I wonder .  a loyalist from Mass maybe.. Edward Winslow

Please forgive me, he was from Connecticut... not Massachusetts

Amos Botsford

[Yves85]

On 7/19/2021 at 9:13 PM, VKurtB said:

I am soooo no expert, but isn’t that a bit far north for Spanish? I would expect to see French or English. But again, not my wheelhouse. 

In this area, if you're finding silver from the 1700s, like 90% of the time it's Spanish. 9% is French bouillon and like 1% is British. I've never found a British silver coin from 1700s. I've found a few French coins, 15 and 30 deniers, and a lot of Spanish.

I don't know why, but that must be what people had in their pockets back then.

There was even a pine tree shilling found in Saint John by a friend of mine a couple of years ago.

Edited July 20, 2021 by Yves85

[James Zyskowski]

Grandson (8)was asking about this thread (he’s a YN) grandpa explained as best I could. He understood and returned with 2examples from his collection. 😊 One with copy and the other chocolate. Bless the children. I smiled and assured him that was a pretty dang good explanation 

Edited July 20, 2021 by James Zyskowski

[VKurtB]

On 7/20/2021 at 7:35 AM, Yves85 said:

In this area, if you're finding silver from the 1700s, like 90% of the time it's Spanish. 9% is French bouillon and like 1% is British. I've never found a British silver coin from 1700s. I've found a few French coins, 15 and 30 deniers, and a lot of Spanish.

I don't know why, but that must be what people had in their pockets back then.

There was even a pine tree shilling found in Saint John by a friend of mine a couple of years ago.

Now Pine Trees I WOULD expect to show up.  

[Yves85]

On 7/20/2021 at 11:55 AM, VKurtB said:

Now Pine Trees I WOULD expect to show up.  

I remember hearing that the reason for this was that taxes were due in British currency, or was at a premium, so the vast majority would end up back across the pond. This, of course, left very few of these coins for circulation and when you're digging coins, all you get is what people had in their pockets at the time, and not what they had squirrelled away in their homes for tax season.

I don't know this for a fact, this is just something I remember.

Edited July 20, 2021 by Yves85
Typos

[VKurtB]

On 7/20/2021 at 1:26 PM, Yves85 said:

I remember hearing that the reason for this was that taxes were due in British currency, or was at a premium, so the vast majority would end up back across the pond. This, of course, left very few of these coins for circulation and when you're digging coins, all you get is what people had in their pockets at the time, and not what they had squirrelled away in their homes for tax season.

I don't know this for a fact, this is just something I remember.

Good enough for me.