French 20-franc gold rooster 1 1

[Henri Charriere]

2 hours ago, Woods020 said:

QA,

I admittedly couldn’t know less about this set, but I ran across a seller on eBay that has several gem graded roosters for sale. MS66/67. Not sure if this is what you are looking for or need but passing it along. 
 

https://www.ebay.com/itm/373489344078?chn=ps&mkevt=1&mkcid=28

I greatly appreciate your bringing this to my attention. As luck would have it, I already have the 1907, 1909 and 1911.  It's the 1910 I need and, unfortunately for me, paid this dealer (whose reputation is top-shelf) the amount you see listed for the '07 and '09, and instructed them to send it directly to PCGS for cross-grading, which was declined.  My money was immediately refunded in full, the coin returned to stock on-line and has apparently since been sold.  Had the coin crossed, it would have been the first addition to my [already complete] collection in over two years.  I have no idea how my wife tolerates the predeliction I have for this absolutely unnecessary obsession to improve upon a collection that has long ago been designated current and finest of all time.

  

[GoldFinger1969]

20 francs is 1/2 ounce coin ?

[zadok]

8 hours ago, GoldFinger1969 said:

20 francs is 1/2 ounce coin ?

no....6.45 grams total weight

0.1867 troy oz gold = 5.807 grams

so bout bit more than 1/6th oz gold

[Henri Charriere]

32 minutes ago, zadok said:

no....6.45 grams total weight

0.1867 troy oz gold = 5.807 grams

so bout bit more than 1/6th oz gold

Correct.  I always say say less than 1/5 z gold with a touch of copper. 

[Henri Charriere]

Reference:  goldadvert.com / 20 francs of the Rooster series (1899-1914)

For unknown reasons (possibly related to the search engine you use to gain access) it took me ten (10) days to access this site (which is curiously marked as an ad) but contains obscure facts on 🐓 which would be of interest to collectors.  I will list the few I recorded as being among the many I was unaware of.  I want to emphasize this is not a presentation of historical facts.  Rather, notes the collector rarely comes across.

"In 1906 coins were issued both with the first inscription 'Dieu protégé la France' (God save France) and with the second, 'Liberte, Egalite et Fraternite. [Notably, no precise figures are given and the seeming variety is nowhere recognized.]

"In 1900, 9433 (Proofs) were minted. [Again, although precise mintage figures are given for all 16 years, no other is followed by this tantalizing fact. What happened to them? I have seen only one (a 1900) a PF-67 Matte graded by NGC and go on sale for $24,400 in 08/2019.]

"Most collectors are aware no 🐓 were minted during the years 1907 to 1914. But few are specifically aware that 'according to some reports only 262,359 samples were circulated' after which production was dropped.

"From 1951 to 1960, more than 37 million copies were released. [These were the coins we call restrikes which bear the dates 1907 to 1914.

To be continued with facts about counterfeits and what event in Europe spurred their production...

Edited June 29, 2021 by Quintus Arrius
Additional fact.

[Oldhoopster]

 

 

 

[Henri Charriere]

41 minutes ago, Oldhoopster said:

 

 

 

Very lovely footnote!

[Henri Charriere]

Source:  goldadvert.com. 20 francs of the Rooster series (1899-1914)

As promised, the following is a verbatim recitation of additional facts as presented in the above-named source...

     *     *     *     *     *

INTERESTING FACTS

* In the mid-70s of the last century, the cost of "Roosters" grew by more than 100% due to the gold prices rise.  At the peak, the golden Napoleon coin was sold at a price that exceeded the cost of gold spent on its production more than two and a half times.  This has led to the production of a large number of counterfeit coins.  Sometimes you can find the coins labeled in 1915, despite the fact that coin's production was stopped in 1914.  Nowadays, the fake "Roosters" can be bought at the same price as modern commemorative gold coins of France 🇫🇷 without the numismatic origin.

[Revenant]

On 7/5/2020 at 3:21 PM, cowbaby said:

As I said, some pieces were taken directly by the mint people straight from the dies.

Even a coin fresh from the mint isn't promised an MS67. Even if one came right off the dies and was handled with care and didn't go in a bag or hopper, 1) it doesn't mean the coin survived the next 100 years in near perfect condition and 2) it doesn't mean those coins have been sent in for grading.

[VKurtB]

16 minutes ago, Revenant said:

Even a coin fresh from the mint isn't promised an MS67. Even if one came right off the dies and was handled with care and didn't go in a bag or hopper, 1) it doesn't mean the coin survived the next 100 years in near perfect condition and 2) it doesn't mean those coins have been sent in for grading.

By and large, they haven’t.

[Henri Charriere]

@Revenant Well, here we are two years later; let's see how things stack up:

1899-1906 - many more people are submitting 🐓, but the pickings are sparce the higher you go. For example, you are very fortunate if you can find anthing beyond MS-65 There are still only a handful at MS-66 and none graded MS-67.

1907-1917 - the field is crowded with a few dates boasting 80 or more at MS-66 but no date with more than 08 at MS-67.

MR. FMV, WHO IS A MAJOR FORCE TO BE RECKONED WITH ON THE NGC SET REGISTRY OWNS THE ONE AND ONLY CERTIFIED MS-67+ IN THE WORLD (WITH ONE MORE MS-67 THAN I HAVE) IS CURRENTLY RANKED #3 BUT MAY VERY WELL ACHIEVE TOP STATUS THIS YEAR.  HIS PROBLEM APPEARS TO BE THE SAME AS MINE: LACK OF AVABILITY OF 🐓 🐓 🐓 AT THE PINNACLE. [NGC HAS 37, OR ABOUT 6X AS MANY🐓 COLLECTORS THAN P- BUT MANY COLLECTIONS HAVE LAIN DORMANT FOR MANY YEARS.]

WISHING ALL A HAPPY, HEALTHY FOURTH!!!

[Henri Charriere]

Source: goldadvert.com / 20 francs of the Rooster 🐓 series (1899-1914)

(The Contents of this source is comprised of:

* Characteristics of Coins * History of the Coins    * Cost of the Coins  (Note the information provided is at least three years old) 

Following is the 3rd and final installment of INTERESTING FACTS...

* "To distinguish a real from a fake coin, you need to use a loupe.  It is known that the "Rooster" of the Paris Mint production is engraved with a tiny Horn of Plenty.

* "French numismatists consider all coins of this [11th and last 20-franc gold] series nothing more than "Marianna," while in other countries they have other names such as "Serez,"  "Louis," or as in our country, "Rooster."

* A number of original golden "Roosters" [1899-1906] has been remelted during the so-called gold confiscation from the U.S. population which was held in the 30's of the last century.  That is why the original coins are highly valued by numismatists and investors."

*     *     *     *     *     *     *

[General Facts:  A total of 117.45 million 🐓 coins were minted. The first and oldest 🐓 1899 was not the rarest, with 1.5 million minted.  The rarest 🐓 is dated 1900, of which 615K were minted. As of today, only one has been NGC graded MS-65, with none graded higher. The rarest of the "redistributed" or "restrike" 🐓 is the 1911, of which 5.34 million were minted. Only 6 have been NGC graded MS-67, with none graded higher.  Interestingly, while 1913 is the 3rd most common date (following 1907 with 17.7 M and 1906 with 14.6 M) none has been graded a straight MS-67 though one has been certified an MS-67+.  Thus far, as noted at the outset of the thread some two years ago today, no original 🐓 has ever been graded an MS-67 and no restrike has been accorded MS-68 status. Mysteries abound... what happened to the 100+ million 🐓 minted?  How many were melted?  Judging by the census/population figures as compared with total mintage, the vast majority remain raw, uncertified -- and largely unaccounted for.  That being the case, sellers basically agree on two things:  All Roosters are popular and all are considered "scarce."

 

 

[Henri Charriere]

On 5/6/2021 at 5:19 PM, Quintus Arrius said:

I do not know if the following question merits a separate post but as the ranking, rank amateur, whose less than stellar status has never been challenged successfully before, I thought I would pose it here, the only derail-proof thread on the Forum, as follows:

What does it cost to submit a coin for certification?  The reason this question has no standard response is because of all the variables involved which includes, apparently much to the surprise of my learned colleague @Goldfinger1969, the Fair Market Value of the coin submitted.

Today, I broke with tradition and decided to fill the gap-toothed smile on my Set Registry's "short set," 1907 thru 1914, by submitting for NGC's approval a 1912 PCGS specimen graded at MS-66 for cross-grading consideration.  Concerned with market- vs detail-grading I chose the "better" of the two MS-66's I own.  That being said, let us now consider the cost of submitting such a coin for your edification, viewing amusement and pleasure.

The standard NGC Submission Form was straight-forward enough. Type of Submission: World (as opposed to US); Grading Tier: Gold/World (with a maximum value not to exceed $3,000. I pegged mine at $600 (though I saw one for sale in Europe for $700.)  That's $30.  The handling fee was $10. (time being money) and the shipping and insurance fee was $26. (based on 1 to 5 coins, valued at between $1-$1,000. Subtotal: $66.

Now on to the social-distance practicing USPS. I purchased a $66. postal money order for $67.30. I was talked into choosing 3-day Priority Mail (weight 2.20 oz., cost $8.80) and avoiding Registration as, in the opinion of the clerk, it was superfluous and expensive.  I am a risk-taker, so I agreed, had the package insured for $500 with a tracking number for $16. and $7.20 for a Grand Total of $83.30 (a figure which doesn't quite add up to what it should, but minor in the grand scheme of things.)

Mind you, this service is as simple as Submission gets. We have a coin that was already certified. If successfully crossed, I am technically a winner. My learned colleague, Coinbuf would beg to differ as he has vowed repeatedly he would not yield to being a slave to any label.  If NGC refuses the cross-grade, I am effectively out at least $83.30 on something I have nothing to show for except that somewhat annoying gap-toothed smile in my album. The point I would like to make is carefully weigh the total cost of the item you have against the total cost of having it encapsulated. I thank you all for your time and attention -- and feedback.

Edit:  Mr 🐓 short set on NGC's Registry is complete and consistent but I broke my self-made promise to complete both sets at the highest grades possible due solely to lack of availability. Even if I wanted to, I can't. I simply do not know what to do. 

[zadok]

8 hours ago, Quintus Arrius said:

Edit:  Mr 🐓 short set on NGC's Registry is complete and consistent but I broke my self-made promise to complete both sets at the highest grades possible due solely to lack of availability. Even if I wanted to, I can't. I simply do not know what to do. 

its called a bar-b-que.....

[Henri Charriere]

10 minutes ago, zadok said:

its called a bar-b-que.....

You will always be the Great Zadok to me, but you sure know how to hurt a guy.

[Henri Charriere]

Note:  As noted on another [somewhat related] thread elsewhere, my active coin collecting days will come to a close on Constitution Day, September 17, 2021, when I attain the ripe old age of 70.  This will endow Set Registrants the rare opportunity of experiencing "hope" first hand.  My standing at PCGS was purely accidental. I dispensed with endless upgrades, including halfgrades (+), and set my sights like the Hon. PARTRICK at the top, regardless of prohibitive cost, conversions to USD from euros, and negotiating languages I do not speak (French, German, etc.) and am not fluent in.  🐓

[Mr.Bill347]

QA, I’m sorry to hear that. Don’t give me that ripe old age junk, I’m 74 and probably way to serious about collecting which, frankly, is more than the budget can handle. Not to worry, I’m ok, and still buying, but limiting what I buy. I wonder if you truly will be able to do so? I know your way too advanced to not participate here any more. And I would hope your hanging on to your roosters for future generations to enjoy. BTW, we’re you able to pick up that nice example last week? Best wishes as you go forward, whatever your endeavors. It’s certainly been a pleasure reading your knowledgeable posts.

[Henri Charriere]

FINALLY, TWO (2) 20-FRANC GOLD ROOSTERS GRADED MS-68! 

By a series of curious chances too fantastic to have been foreseen, I stumbled upon the NGC Census while researching something else, and discovered much to my amazement that at least two Roosters, a 1908 and a 1912, both so-called "restrikes" likely minted in the 1950's and 1960's, were quietly and without fanfare, awarded the never bestowed upon any Rooster (1899-1914) the much-coveted, thus far highest grade MS-68, recently.

With the recent news reported by French wire services referencing the discovery of two separate mini-hoards of coins, one of which apparently contained over a hundred of what we refer to as Mint State Roosters, among other coins, it is my belief, borne by an explosion of newly-certified coins [and new owners] on the NGC Set Registry that overtures were made by thus far unknown buyers who managed to acquire them for their potentially great numismatic value.  Both appear on the census but have not been added to anyone's Set Registry. Yet.

The hour is late and I am tired. I will check the figures presented by PCGS tomorrow. And to think, I was ready to throw in the towel.

I predict @Alex in PA. and @MAULEMALL -- who both dislike Noo Yawkuz, 🐓's,  and me -- will be tickled pink by this news!      Man, I love ❤ this place!

[VKurtB]

On 9/8/2021 at 10:48 PM, Quintus Arrius said:

FINALLY, TWO (2) 20-FRANC GOLD ROOSTERS GRADED MS-68! 

By a series of curious chances too fantastic to have been foreseen, I stumbled upon the NGC Census while researching something else, and discovered much to my amazement that at least two Roosters, a 1908 and a 1912, both so-called "restrikes" likely minted in the 1950's and 1960's, were quietly and without fanfare, awarded the never bestowed upon any Rooster (1899-1914) the much-coveted, thus far highest grade MS-68, recently.

With the recent news reported by French wire services referencing the discovery of two separate mini-hoards of coins, one of which apparently contained over a hundred of what we refer to as Mint State Roosters, among other coins, it is my belief, borne by an explosion of newly-certified coins [and new owners] on the NGC Set Registry that overtures were made by thus far unknown buyers who managed to acquire them for their potentially great numismatic value.  Both appear on the census but have not been added to anyone's Set Registry. Yet.

The hour is late and I am tired. I will check the figures presented by PCGS tomorrow. And to think, I was ready to throw in the towel.

I predict @Alex in PA. and @MAULEMALL -- who both dislike Noo Yawkuz, 🐓's,  and me -- will be tickled pink by this news!      Man, I love ❤ this place!

‘Twas only a matter of time, my friend.

Edited September 9, 2021 by VKurtB

[Mohawk]

On 9/8/2021 at 11:50 PM, VKurtB said:

‘Twas only a matter of time, my friend.

Indeed it was.  Very cool Quintus!!! Thanks for sharing that!!

[Henri Charriere]

FURTHER to my revelation yesterday of discovering two (2) French 20-franc gold roosters, a 1908 and 1912, had been graded MS-68 by NGC, a cursory review of PCGS certifications reveals that while those graded MS-66 continue to pile up on the "restrike" tier, none have been graded MS-68 for any year nor has any graded MS-67 for 1914, officially the last year of the series.  🐓 

[RWB]

Located the elusive MS-68 rooster -- and it's already slabbed.

Edited September 10, 2021 by RWB

[Mohawk]

That is one dead dinosaur, Roger.  It looks like it was there when the meteor hit.........

[RWB]

Certainly has nice toning. Hoping Quintus appreciates all the research members are putting into finding him the final, ideal hens -- oops -- roosters for his farm.

[Henri Charriere]

As with most so-called Hoard discoveries, news of the find is not announced immediately. Considerations: Where was it found? Who is the owner, or rightful heirs? Who found it?  Where applicable, were investors involved? The location of the find, ideally, must be approached much as one would an archeological dig. Excavation and documentation when properly conducted takes time. Professionals must be consulted. Questions of authenticity and conservation and preservation must be explored.  Estimated values must be established. These were "re-discovered" in 2019. Exactly what was found, where and by whom, notwithstanding, the find will undoubtedly contribute enormously to numismatic understanding of history as it unfolded in Europe during a specific range of years in France and Europe.

[Henri Charriere]

On 9/10/2021 at 5:19 PM, RWB said:

Certainly has nice toning. Hoping Quintus appreciates all the research members are putting into finding him the final, ideal hens -- oops -- roosters for his farm.

I am flattered!

[Henri Charriere]

On 9/10/2021 at 5:19 PM, RWB said:

Certainly has nice toning. Hoping Quintus appreciates all the research members are putting into finding him the final, ideal hens -- oops -- roosters for his farm.

I certainly do!

[WillieBoyd2]

One interesting note is that the France Marianne-Rooster coin appeared on a French World War One poster.

France 20 francs 1912 Marianne-Rooster

French World War One poster with coin

The poster shows a French gold coin attacking a German soldier.
It was designed by Abel Faivre in 1915 and reads:
"Pour la France VERSEZ VOTRE OR" (For France, DONATE YOUR GOLD)
"L'Or Combat Pour La Victoire" (The Gold Fights for Victory)

A work of art becomes part of another work of art.

[Henri Charriere]

@WillieBoyd2. I have studied these coins for two years, many months before I became a member.

But there appears to be an impenetrable mystique surrounding this coin.  The original series which ran from 1899 to 1906 is forthright.  The so-called "restrikes," dubbed "redistributed" (1907-191 are cloaked in mystery.

Which of those were minted on the date displayed? Which were minted in 1921?  Which were minted in the 1950's and 1960's. Where can one find an alleged "1898" or "1915," patterns, or not?  Where are the 1908 and 1912, recently authenticated and certified a heretofore never before graded MS-68, and why were they swiftly re-encapsulated at supersonic speed by parties unknown.  They do not currently appear in an NGC Set Registry.

I vowed to retire on Constitution Day, 2021 and I intend to keep my promise.  For the unduly inquisitive, it takes 16 coins to complete a collection.  I have 37 plus a few more condemned to spend the rest of their lives in a black velour bag with drawstrings.  Their crime?  With the exception of one, they have all met the burden of Mint-State grading status but I do not recognize or accept anything less than an MS-65.

I appreciate your interest, contributions and comments.   🐓 

Edited September 28, 2021 by Quintus Arrius
Die brushing.

[Henri Charriere]

Update

No sign of either the 1908 or 1912 NGC-graded MS-68's.

But somewhat disconcerting, the population of Mint State Roosters has exploded.  Almost 400 now in dozens of sets. PCGS continues to maintain its competive edge on the "re-strike" issues (1907-1914) while dominating the "originals" (1899-1914)  Anyone whose desire is to complete a set must be prepared to acquire examples from Europe, at higher prices -- or wait, interminably.

To date, the number of people who've broached the subject of gold 🐓 with me directly, exclusive of dealers, can be counted on one hand.

One more thing... being wholly unfamiliar with leading economic indicators and FMV's, I can only guess prices will be orchestrated by rising certifications checked by the ups and downs of gold spot, and moderated with the discovery of a hitherto unknown French gold hoard factored in.

I am a simple person with simple tastes.  If I should win tonite's Powerball drawing, my entire holdings will go to the village in France that stuck up for Maurice the Rooster, now deceased, at my expense. Otherwise, I will wait until gold breaches a certain level, and then sell. Either way, it will give me an unprecedented opportunity with which to re-acquaint myself with my wife and remind myself I am married and have obligations.    🐓