French 20-franc gold rooster 1 1

[Henri Charriere]

4 minutes ago, VKurtB said:

And she told me to say "hi" for her.

Thanks. 

[VKurtB]

2 minutes ago, Quintus Arrius said:

Thanks. 

We needn't, and probably shouldn't, for fear of being expelled from this board, exchange "greetings" from my sister. It wouldn't pass muster from the moderators for sure. It's a politics and estate thing.

[Henri Charriere]

23 minutes ago, VKurtB said:

We needn't, and probably shouldn't, for fear of being expelled from this board, exchange "greetings" from my sister. It wouldn't pass muster from the moderators for sure. It's a politics and estate thing.

What a shame!  I am sure she has her own theory as to why Brenner's initials were removed from the reverse AND why they were placed on Lincoln's right shoulder [where they can be viewed in all their incised, bas-relief splendor with a thirty mag lens].  Ha! Ha! Ha!  Dino the Dinosaur, indeed.

[VKurtB]

On the very very rare occasion when I have to  "whip out" the serious magnification, I "whip out" the heavy iron:

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[Henri Charriere]

4 hours ago, VKurtB said:

On the very very rare occasion when I have to  "whip out" the serious magnification, I "whip out" the heavy iron:

 

•  

 

 

 

Not for nothing, but how many people have actually taken a cold hard look at that VDB or the micro printing on these new bills.  

[VKurtB]

How many? Certainly darned few without visual hardware. 

[Henri Charriere]

On 7/5/2020 at 4:21 PM, cowbaby said:

'Maybe there remains a shred of honest, accurate grading for some of the more common gold coins? If the least marked-up piece is accurately graded MS-65, then so be it.' 

That is YOUR opinion which you are certainly entitled to. I just don't happen to share it. To me it has more to do with what a grader thinks of the coin overall. Of course I think they try to give an honest assessment, its just honesty has less to do with it imo. 

As I said, some pieces were taken directly by the mint people straight from the dies. What this implies to me is certain coins never had even close to a good strike and the designers did 

On 7/5/2020 at 4:21 PM, cowbaby said:

 

I know the real reason why..But for the sake of argument I won't go into it.. 

 

Hate to revive a dead horse but your comment, as excerpted above, has remained stuck in my craw for the past month impervious to dental procedure.  Now that the thundering herd has moved on, may I ask you to reconsider your decision to withhold comment and state forthrightly whatever it is you may know about this matter as I am intensely interested as the rooster-meister who initiated this thread. I am all ears. Tks!

[Henri Charriere]

For the record, there were three French 20-franc gold roosters offered for sale in 2019, all of which deserve mention in this thread, as follows:

1899 Piefort Essai (minted on a thick planchet) that was PCGS-graded SP-63 (Splendide MS-60-64)  which was offered for sale for $13,440+ (Luxembourg);

1899 PCGS SP-65  Geoffrey Winstein, Win Numis (I failed to note the price).

1900 NGC PF-67 Matte which was offered for sale by Liberty Coin, CA. for $24,400 (and was either sold or withdrawn from sale).

[Cat Bath]

3 hours ago, Quintus Arrius said:

For the record, there were three French 20-franc gold roosters offered for sale in 2019, all of which deserve mention in this thread, as follows:

Ouch!...

It looks like you have to come out swinging if you want any of the God coins.

Oh-well...It's still a nice relief from the CAC hysteria gripping US collectors.

Edited August 11, 2020 by Cat Bath

[Henri Charriere]

On 7/5/2020 at 4:21 PM, cowbaby said:

 

I know the real reason why..But for the sake of argument I won't go into it.. 

 

Out of all the comments made, I find yours to be the most intriguing. Yes, even after sixty days.

[GoldFinger1969]

On 7/5/2020 at 9:49 AM, cowbaby said:

Same thing with 10 Indians Us gold. Seems you could count on your hands ones that hit even 68 only one 69 that I know of and never been a 70. I know for a fact quite a few of them were saved by people at the mint straight off the dies.

$10 Eagles ?  You know people who got them pre-1933 ?  Wow....

Nonetheless, even the 1907 High Relief Saints haven't scored a 70 and many went straight to velvet pouches.

Edited October 30, 2020 by GoldFinger1969

[Henri Charriere]

[With kbbpll's indulgence, who may or may not have permanently ensconced me on his "pay him no mind list," a/k/a ignore, I should like to offer the following startling update on what he refers to as my "precious niche."  It seems, based solely on my own observations as undertaken during my regular monthly population censuses that sometime within the past two months, a sizeable dump of French 20-franc gold roosters, many in various grades of mint state condition submitted mostly in high grades primarily to PCGS' European outposts. In addition, possibly with the recent run-up in gold prices, those graded MS67 which were nowhere to be found anywhere, suddenly inundated the market from all quarters.

This gave me an opportunity to do something VKurtB, our much esteemed seasoned veteran, likely in transit, swore to the heavens he has never done and never will do: buy a coin sight unseen, out of hand.  I just purchased two -- sight unseen -- and it remains to be seen if I will ever get them. I used a bank wire transfer on one (because I refuse to generate income for PayPal's "overseers" with whom I have had two fruitless "discussions previously,  and USPS money orders on the other though they do not list it on their site as an approved form of payment. With Roosters, you must expect the unexpected.  Sometime soon, I expect to learn the thrill of victory... or the agony of defeat.  The more interesting facet of this venture is my Set Registry is complete and has received a * which I take to mean is ranked #1, but is not the best possible. Right now I have to find a way to transmit 16 euros to France. A wire costs $50. and your local cash checking establishment which uses Western Union, transfers funds to individuals -- not companies. I asked the coin emporium to carry the shortfall (on a nearly one thousand dollar order) as a debit, having done business with them several times in the past without incident.  If anyone within the sound of my voice has any ideas, I would be happy to hear from you.

[Cat Bath]

4 hours ago, Quintus Arrius said:

 Sometime soon, I expect to learn the thrill of victory... or the agony of defeat. 

I remember sending the equivalent of two weeks pay via credit card for a foreign coin & having the transaction flagged. I had to verify that I was willing to loose that amount of money before they would proceed. Then there was a confirmation E-Mail from the seller that was worded as if a Nigerian prince had written it. I was sure I had made a mistake. Fun times!

Edited December 7, 2020 by Cat Bath

[Henri Charriere]

The thrill of victory... part 1. I purchased a 20-euro banknote (for 28 and change) threw it in an envelope and mailed it directly from Grand Central's adjoining post office.  Not 24 hours later, a 1908 MS 67 French 20-franc gold rooster arrived, professionally packaged, with an invoice which indicated, based on my prior satisfactory buying experience, some fancy footwork was engaged in to justify the shortage (13.45 euros) they termed a "global discount." I placed it in my Set Registry ATS and my overall standing, now 65.688, was increased by a whopping 0.093, within hours.  My intention is to compile the finest possible set rating which currently stands at 67.219.  Yes, even if doing so reduces me at [damned near] 70 years old to scavenging for bottles and cans in the street.  Stay tuned for part 2 which involves a similar purchase from a reputable dealer in California and a request to have it cross-graded.  Hopefully, with the sluggish way things are moving, I will get a sneak preview on the verdict sometime early next year.

[Henri Charriere]

On 7/4/2020 at 10:47 PM, RWB said:

They haven't been submitted enough times -- yet.

As you may have occasion to recall your reply was the first posted to the only question I have ever submitted to the Forum since becoming a member and is as true today as the day it was written.  The run-up in gold prices loosened a veritable hoard of gold roosters, most submitted to PCGS (as evidenced by their sequential certification numbers) and I was fortunate enough to snag two.  Overall, however, your observation rings true.  The acceptance of Sheldonization continues incrementally in Europe and I keep monitoring the more reliable sources.

[RWB]

Quintus,

Did you get any higher "grades?"

[Henri Charriere]

1 hour ago, RWB said:

Quintus,

Did you get any higher "grades?"

So far none has graded higher than MS-67+.  Dozens have been added to the 66 and 66+ columns. 

I picked up a 1908 PCGS MS-67 from France, and a 1910 NGC MS-67 from California (which I requested be forwarded to PCGS for cross-grading before being sent to me).

There are still no 67s for the original series, 1899-1906 and the number of 67s for the so-called "restrike" years, 1907-1914 by each of the top two TPGS, can be counted on one hand.

I own a few of which none have been graded higher, but nothing unique.  I still cannot account for the peculiar obsession I have for these coins.

[Henri Charriere]

On 7/5/2020 at 5:25 PM, kbbpll said:

You didn't specify a date range originally,....

Actually, I did, if I may kindly direct your attention to the top of the page [which incidentally remains as true today as the day I had written it 1 and 1/2 years ago.]

 

[jtryka]

so many words...so little meaning...

[Henri Charriere]

1 hour ago, jtryka said:

so many words...so little meaning...

As it should as not a single comment was directed to you personally, right?

[Henri Charriere]

On 12/10/2020 at 6:26 PM, Quintus Arrius said:

The thrill of victory... part 1. I purchased a 20-euro banknote (for 28 and change) threw it in an envelope and mailed it directly from Grand Central's adjoining post office.  Not 24 hours later, a 1908 MS 67 French 20-franc gold rooster arrived, professionally packaged, with an invoice which indicated, based on my prior satisfactory buying experience, some fancy footwork was engaged in to justify the shortage (13.45 euros) they termed a "global discount." I placed it in my Set Registry ATS and my overall standing, now 65.688, was increased by a whopping 0.093, within hours.  My intention is to compile the finest possible set rating which currently stands at 67.219.  Yes, even if doing so reduces me at [damned near] 70 years old to scavenging for bottles and cans in the street.  Stay tuned for part 2 which involves a similar purchase from a reputable dealer in California and a request to have it cross-graded.  Hopefully, with the sluggish way things are moving, I will get a sneak preview on the verdict sometime early next year.

That time, as you may have read elsewhere, has come with catastrophic results.  There is a part of me that believed (figuratively speaking) if you are sitting in an outside office of a TPGS while the reputable well-known dealer steps inside to have the coin you purchased at considerable cost cross-graded, professional courtesy dictates that you will prevail. That did not happen.  In fact, it has never happened to me before though it has happened to many viewers as presented in these threads. Naturally, I bore all the expenses and have nothing to show for my effort.  (And the coin, re-encapsulated, was quietly returned to the internet.  I don't know what to make of all this but readers will recall the remarks made on this subject by viewers as varied as Mark Feld and NevadaS&G.  I was refunded the entire amount minus one hundred dollars. Interestingly, this never would have happened to our seasoned veteran. He refuses to buy a coin unseen and out of hand.

[VKurtB]

On 2/4/2021 at 9:14 AM, Quintus Arrius said:

That time, as you may have read elsewhere, has come with catastrophic results.  There is a part of me that believed (figuratively speaking) if you are sitting in an outside office of a TPGS while the reputable well-known dealer steps inside to have the coin you purchased at considerable cost cross-graded, professional courtesy dictates that you will prevail. That did not happen.  In fact, it has never happened to me before though it has happened to many viewers as presented in these threads. Naturally, I bore all the expenses and have nothing to show for my effort.  (And the coin, re-encapsulated, was quietly returned to the internet.  I don't know what to make of all this but readers will recall the remarks made on this subject by viewers as varied as Mark Feld and NevadaS&G.  I was refunded the entire amount minus one hundred dollars. Interestingly, this never would have happened to our seasoned veteran. He refuses to buy a coin unseen and out of hand.

My “savant skill” is finding cheap transportation options, so yes, the only people I buy coins from remotely are several national mints, and the odd occasion in which the grade is unimportant. 

[Just Bob]

On 2/4/2021 at 9:14 AM, Quintus Arrius said:

That time, as you may have read elsewhere, has come with catastrophic results.  

What actually happened? Did the coin not cross? Was it declared not genuine? Did it receive a lower grade?

[jtryka]

On 12/10/2020 at 6:26 PM, Quintus Arrius said:

The thrill of victory... part 1. I purchased a 20-euro banknote (for 28 and change) threw it in an envelope and mailed it directly from Grand Central's adjoining post office.  Not 24 hours later, a 1908 MS 67 French 20-franc gold rooster arrived, professionally packaged, with an invoice which indicated, based on my prior satisfactory buying experience, some fancy footwork was engaged in to justify the shortage (13.45 euros) they termed a "global discount." I placed it in my Set Registry ATS and my overall standing, now 65.688, was increased by a whopping 0.093, within hours.  My intention is to compile the finest possible set rating which currently stands at 67.219.  Yes, even if doing so reduces me at [damned near] 70 years old to scavenging for bottles and cans in the street.  Stay tuned for part 2 which involves a similar purchase from a reputable dealer in California and a request to have it cross-graded.  Hopefully, with the sluggish way things are moving, I will get a sneak preview on the verdict sometime early next year.

I'm not sure I understand this post.  What does the 20-euro note have to do with the rooster?  Did you buy the rooster for 20 euros?  Where does the 13.45 euro shortage come from?

[Henri Charriere]

On 9/10/2020 at 5:29 PM, Quintus Arrius said:

Out of all the comments made, I find yours to be the most intriguing. Yes, even after sixty days.

Eighteen months... and counting.

[Henri Charriere]

9 hours ago, VKurtB said:

My “savant skill” is finding cheap transportation options, so yes, the only people I buy coins from remotely are several national mints, and the odd occasion in which the grade is unimportant. 

One point you have in your favor is never having to say you're sorry.

[Henri Charriere]

6 hours ago, jtryka said:

I'm not sure I understand this post.  What does the 20-euro note have to do with the rooster?  Did you buy the rooster for 20 euros?  Where does the 13.45 euro shortage come from?

Good point; my fault... when you purchase a coin from overseas there is the small matter of paying to have your USD to euros.  That's where eBay comes in.  In the U.S., payment on a winning bid is expected as soon as the clock runs out. You will get something, in substance, like: YOU WON! NOW PAY UP! I had become so programmed to pay up without delay that I had forgotten that I was obliged to wait until all costs had been calculated.  In my haste to pay, I tried my local check cashing place. No go. They are contracted to use Western Union to transmit funds to specific individuals in certain areas of particular countries.  I then went down to my bank: "That'll be $50, (for a formal bank wire transfer from your bank account as opposed to currency from your pocket.) After all was said and done, I got a polite reminder that there was still the comparatively small matter of 20 euros due for the currency conversion which would cost me an additional $13.45.  I told them it would cost me $50. to send that to them then thought the better of it, threw it into an envelope and mailed it. In due course, I received a lovely note saying they could not accept the payment as it had since been written off as a "global discount." I told them, "It's Christmas! The coin is beautiful! I don't want you spending money to send money." And it all ended on a good note though I feel somewhere our seasoned, globe-trotting veteran is sitting there shaking his head in utter disbelief. 

[Henri Charriere]

On 2/5/2021 at 2:28 PM, Just Bob said:

What actually happened? Did the coin not cross? Was it declared not genuine? Did it receive a lower grade?

There is a gaping hole in my Set Registry at the 1912 MS66 position.  For esthetic purposes, I long ago decided I wanted to maintain the re-strike line (1907-1914) at MS66. Suddenly, an MS67 surfaced which put me in a quandary: buy it as is and become one of the few collectors to display one at NGC, or cross it and allow it to fraternize with its many associates on my PCGS Registry.  The dealer was within a stone's throw of PCGS and I requested he send it directly to them for cross-grading (something I would not be able to do because I had allowed my membership to lapse). With long turn-around times, pandemic sanitation precautionary measures in place and the USPS apparently reverting to dirigibles for air delivery, I promised myself I would allow all parties to proceed at their own pace without annoying calls to Customer Service inquiring as to order status.  Eventually, I got a call from a surprisingly amiable Christian at Liberty who told me the coin failed to cross. Just Bob, this has never happened to me in my entire life. My money would be refunded after adjustments had been made complicated by my refusal to use PayPal, my involvement with two separate TPGS, the cost of registering and insuring a coin based on FMV, and ultimately time, postage and resources. Decapsulation/re-encapsulation. What a mess. Naturally, I apologized for putting them through all this a process through which all parties maintained their cordiality and professionalism.  [Some trivia: There are presently 619 compilations in NGCs Set Registry for France.  Of those, 326 feature 20-franc coins from 1870 - Date.  A grand total of 34 French 20-franc gold rooster collections remain extant.  [During the last run-up in gold prices, dozens of previously unseen roosters were submitted for formal grading -- mainly in Europe (France, Germany) with only a few assessed at MS 67, all in the restrike (1907-1914) range many of which have since been sold.]

[Henri Charriere]

On 2/5/2021 at 2:28 PM, Just Bob said:

What actually happened? Did the coin not cross? Was it declared not genuine? Did it receive a lower grade?

I have since re-visited this matter and feel now, in view of comments made by members elsewhere regarding grading by TPGS, generally, that all things considered, PCGS (or divine intervention) unwittingly did me a favor by declining to cross-grade a coin previously certified MS-67-- which I hadn't yet taken delivery of, by offering a second opinion. It prompted me to more closely re-examine the coin which upon sober, unhurried scrutiny more than justified the unfavorable assessment.  I own several Roosters in this upper-tier grade, and not a one, NONE, displayed the disorder clearly bedeviling the date, legends and fields. There is no question that the experience taught me a valuable lesson, saved me a great deal of money and validates our colleague, VKurtB's hard-line stance on refusing to engage in blind buying. Takeaway: do not allow your resolve to complete a compilation to supersede what is obvious to you after close examination.

[VKurtB]

16 hours ago, Quintus Arrius said:

I have since re-visited this matter and feel now, in view of comments made by members elsewhere regarding grading by TPGS, generally, that all things considered, PCGS (or divine intervention) unwittingly did me a favor by declining to cross-grade a coin previously certified MS-67-- which I hadn't yet taken delivery of, by offering a second opinion. It prompted me to more closely re-examine the coin which upon sober, unhurried scrutiny more than justified the unfavorable assessment.  I own several Roosters in this upper-tier grade, and not a one, NONE, displayed the disorder clearly bedeviling the date, legends and fields. There is no question that the experience taught me a valuable lesson, saved me a great deal of money and validates our colleague, VKurtB's hard-line stance on refusing to engage in blind buying. Takeaway: do not allow your resolve to complete a compilation to supersede what is obvious to you after close examination.

Or to put it another way in a slightly different context, “empty album holes cause us to lose the ability to think and see.” The best thing I learned during one of my hiatus periods from the hobby is to stop worrying about missing coins and learn to enjoy the hunt.

 

VKurtB’s corollary to the above is the flip side - just because you have an album hole filled, NEVER stop looking for an upgrade.

Edited February 14, 2021 by VKurtB