Roger Burdette's Saint Gaudens Double Eagles Book 4 4

[zadok]

On 10/15/2022 at 12:33 PM, GoldFinger1969 said:

Hey, Zad, you blew my surprise announcement !! 

...u will have better success in the 63-64s....

[Henri Charriere]

On 10/15/2022 at 12:13 PM, zadok said:

...u dont see many collectors putting together a set of st gaudens in ms61....

Your point is well-taken. Bullion. And, for lack of a better word, lack of low-ball mint-states.  There was a tremendous influx of Asian money in real estate and high-end collectibles in recent decades.  Does any of that figure in the stampeding prices?  Anyone?

[GoldFinger1969]

On 10/15/2022 at 2:00 PM, Quintus Arrius said:

Your point is well-taken. Bullion. And, for lack of a better word, lack of low-ball mint-states.  There was a tremendous influx of Asian money in real estate and high-end collectibles in recent decades.  Does any of that figure in the stampeding prices?  Anyone?

Haven't seen ANYTHING mentioned -- and I scan all over -- about foreign $$$ moving up U.S. coin prices.  Just a lagged reaction to the bubble with baseball cards, crypto, and NFT crappola (apoligies to one A. Bunker  ).

It is also the lower-priced stuff that has made the biggest move, stuff costing under $500.  Then the high-end where the super-rich play.  The broad middle has moved up but nothing extravagant.

[GoldFinger1969]

On 10/15/2022 at 2:00 PM, Quintus Arrius said:

Does any of that figure in the stampeding prices?  

QA, what prices are you referring to as "stampeding" ? 

I can tell you the bubble in SPACs, NFTs, crypto, and other "new" assets has been wiped out.  Prices down 50-75%.

Edited October 17, 2022 by GoldFinger1969

[Henri Charriere]

On 10/17/2022 at 12:11 PM, GoldFinger1969 said:

QA, what prices are you referring to as "stampeding" ? 

I can tell you the bubble in SPACs, NFTs, crypto, and other "new" assets has been wiped out.  Prices down 50-75%.

It just seems every time I turn around, there is yet another auction, and yet another top price realized at auction.  I was curious to know whether Asian money has been parked to any noticeable extent in collectibles, generally, and Saints, specifically. It was noted many years ago that 50% or more of commercial real estate in New York City is owned/managed by Asians.

Edited October 17, 2022 by Quintus Arrius
Add-on factoid.

[GoldFinger1969]

On 10/17/2022 at 12:24 PM, Quintus Arrius said:

It just seems every time I turn around, there is yet another auction, and yet another top price realized at auction.  I was curious to know whether Asian money has been parked to any noticeable extent in collectibles, generally, and Saints, specifically. It was noted many years ago that 50% or more of commercial real estate in New York City is owned/managed by Asians.

Some of our veteran collectors here might know otherwise, but I am unaware of foreigners showing ANY interest in ANY U.S. coins, including Saints.  Now, they might be buying GOLD and maybe a few people here and there bought U.S. bars, modern bullion coins, or some pre-1933 U.S. gold.  But I see no major trend, no.

Real estate -- residential or commercial -- is for income and appreciation which is much different than spending big $$$ on a hobby.

Edited October 17, 2022 by GoldFinger1969

[Henri Charriere]

On 10/17/2022 at 2:06 PM, GoldFinger1969 said:

Real estate -- residential or commercial -- is for income and appreciation which is much different than spending big $$$ on a hobby.

How so?  There are trophy buildings, like New York's Plaza Hotel (now gone condo) and trophy coins, like the '33.  They transcend the hobby and garden-variety collectibles, no?  I see them as long-term investments, separate and apart from collectibles subject to the whims of the marketplace. The only way trophies falter is if they stagnate----no downside---- and fail to deliver any "return" on investment.  

[zadok]

On 10/17/2022 at 2:06 PM, GoldFinger1969 said:

Some of our veteran collectors here might know otherwise, but I am unaware of foreigners showing ANY interest in ANY U.S. coins, including Saints.  Now, they might be buying GOLD and maybe a few people here and there bought U.S. bars, modern bullion coins, or some pre-1933 U.S. gold.  But I see no major trend, no.

Real estate -- residential or commercial -- is for income and appreciation which is much different than spending big $$$ on a hobby.

...the only big money i have personally witnessed in the US coin market was Saudi money in the late 70s n early 80s...in recent years i have seen some significant cash purchases being made by Russian or at least previous Russian states persons...i have never personally witnessed any large Asian purchases, the only way to really survey that question would be to ask the bigger dealers with large inventories n i would believe them to be reticent to answer....

[GoldFinger1969]

On 10/17/2022 at 6:05 PM, Quintus Arrius said:

How so?  There are trophy buildings, like New York's Plaza Hotel (now gone condo) and trophy coins, like the '33.  They transcend the hobby and garden-variety collectibles, no?  I see them as long-term investments, separate and apart from collectibles subject to the whims of the marketplace. The only way trophies falter is if they stagnate----no downside---- and fail to deliver any "return" on investment.  

(1)  You are dealing with a HIGHLY illiquid investment when talking coins.  People are more likely to splurge on art.

(2)  Returns, as we have documented on these threads multiple times, RARELY exceed mid-to-high single digits, which is nothing compared to the total returns from real estate (plus the tax benefits).

[GoldFinger1969]

It's a bit OT, but since we are talking about investments in gold/Saints and alternatives, here's what has happened to baseball cards:

https://sportscollectorsdigest.com/news/sports-card-market-values-national-sports-collectors-convention

 

 

[RWB]

On 10/19/2022 at 11:44 AM, GoldFinger1969 said:

It's a bit OT, but since we are talking about investments in gold/Saints and alternatives, here's what has happened to baseball cards:

https://sportscollectorsdigest.com/news/sports-card-market-values-national-sports-collectors-convention

 

 

I feel the key question is whether the bubble gum is still good.

[GoldFinger1969]

On 10/19/2022 at 7:07 PM, RWB said:

I feel the key question is whether the bubble gum is still good.

I'm not sure they include it anymore...ruins the glossy pics. 

[GoldFinger1969]

400 OZ. BARS:  Does anybody know why the UK and US and most other nations used 400 ounce gold bars to settle trade during the Gold Standard era ?  I'm just wondering why it wasn't a different number, like 100 ounces or 500 ounces. 

[GoldFinger1969]

The Forgotten Depression:  It gets TOTALLY overlooked because it followed WWI, comes right before The Roaring Twenties, and 8 years later you have The Great Depression.

But The Great Recession or even Depression of 1921 gets totally overlooked.  Yet it was a unique downturn, unlike any other, in that wages and prices adjusted on their own and as a result James Grant (financial commentator and author) calls this book The Forgotten Depression: 1921: The Crash That Cured Itself.  I had meant to get this book for years but re-reading RWB's section on The Roaring Twenties (Ch. 4) re-spurred me.

https://www.amazon.com/Forgotten-Depression-Crash-Cured-Itself/dp/1451686463/ref=sr_1_3?crid=12UHGQFY7TG1K&keywords=james+grant&qid=1667662400&s=books&sprefix=james+grant%2Cstripbooks%2C135&sr=1-3

I need to read the book, but as a trained economist and former Fed Watcher, it is often said that prices and wages are sticky to the downside.  I have to think that this "miracle adjustment" was aided by the fact that coming out of WW I less than 3 years later the U.S. was in the strongest position globally and this helped our competitive position and allowed for the adjustment process within the country to be much less painful than in other countries.

You can see James Grant talk about his book on YouTube on CNBC and Bloomberg most likely.  Prior to striking out on his own, he was the first CURRENT YIELD (column on interest rates) author for BARRON'S.

Anyway....I thought this might be of interest to any Saint or Peace Dollar collectors of the early-1920's. 

Edited November 5, 2022 by GoldFinger1969

[Henri Charriere]

On 11/5/2022 at 11:32 AM, GoldFinger1969 said:

400 OZ. BARS:  Does anybody know why the UK and US and most other nations used 400 ounce gold bars to settle trade during the Gold Standard era ?  I'm just wondering why it wasn't a different number, like 100 ounces or 500 ounces. 

Q.A.:  Let's see... I come up with 33.3333333333 "pounds" of precious metal.

GF1969:  Yeah, but Why?

Q.A.:  Ya got me! (Maybe it's time we went metric.) 

GF1969: Thanks. You've been, er, very helpful.  

[GoldFinger1969]

On 11/5/2022 at 10:28 PM, Quintus Arrius said:

Q.GF1969: Thanks. You've been, er, very helpful.  

Wasn't that what  Billy Ray Valentine told the limo driver in "Trading Places" ??  

[Henri Charriere]

On 11/6/2022 at 1:06 AM, GoldFinger1969 said:

Wasn't that what  Billy Ray Valentine told the limo driver in "Trading Places" ??  

EXACTLY!  You, my friend, have a stellar memory!  

[RWB]

Good delivery specifications for gold bars.

Fineness: minimum of 995.0 parts per thousand fine gold

Marks: serial number, refiner's hallmark, fineness, year of manufacture

Gold content: 350–430 troy ounces (11–13 kg)

Recommended dimensions --

Length (top): 210–290 millimeters (8.3–11.4 inches)

Width (top): 55–85 millimeters (2.2–3.3 inches)

Height: 25–45 millimeter (0.98–1.77 inches)

Specifications/rules were established by London Bullion Market Association in 1947. Prior to that it was informally set by various association of bullion dealers and London Gold bullion Guild.

The bar weight was not actually 400 T oz, but approximate based on convenient mold sizes. Bars were intended to be of convenient weight and shape for shipping with minimal movement between bars. The modern trapezoidal shape was adopted to minimize shipping movement and improve security in holding a bar for stacking. Here are a few photos from 1896-1901 showing rectangular gold bars. Notice the variety of sizes.

 

Edited November 6, 2022 by RWB

[GoldFinger1969]

On 11/6/2022 at 11:07 AM, RWB said:

Specifications/rules were established by London Bullion Market Association in 1947. Prior to that it was informally set by various association of bullion dealers and London Gold bullion Guild. The bar weight was not actually 400 T oz, but approximate based on convenient mold sizes. Bars were intended to be of convenient weight and shape for shipping with minimal movement between bars. The modern trapezoidal shape was adopted to minimize shipping movement and improve security in holding a bar for stacking. Here are a few photos from 1896-1901 showing rectangular gold bars. Notice the variety of sizes.

Are you saying they actually measured the weight of ALL gold bars that were used in trade ?  That must have been a huge PITA.

[RWB]

LBMA does not recommend stamping the weight on bars. Each par is weighed on receipt and that is its official weight. This allows for transportation wear, damage, and weight discrepancies. During the gold coinage period, the only accepted weight was that taken by the Mint or Assay Office - not what was stamped on a bar.

Edited November 6, 2022 by RWB

[GoldFinger1969]

On 11/6/2022 at 2:41 PM, RWB said:

LBMA does not recommend stamping the weight on bars. Each par is weighed on receipt and that is its official weight. This allows for transportation wear, damage, and weight discrepancies. During the gold coinage period, the only accepted weight was that taken by the Mint or Assay Office - not what was stamped on a bar.

So if you had 1,000 bars....could they weigh them all at once or maybe a few hundred at a time....and then know in the aggregate that they were up to spec...or did they do it bar-by-bar ?

[Henri Charriere]

Off-tangential query:

To your knowledge, has any mint worker, here or overseas suffered from the effects of being subjected to the harmful effects of dust, vapors and fumes discharged in poorly-vetilated furnace areas?  Do workers today wear protective masks?

[zadok]

On 11/6/2022 at 7:21 PM, GoldFinger1969 said:

So if you had 1,000 bars....could they weigh them all at once or maybe a few hundred at a time....and then know in the aggregate that they were up to spec...or did they do it bar-by-bar ?

...no...individually....

[RWB]

Every bar was weighed. There are extensive lists of silver and gold bars among mint archives. Gold dust, nuggets, or scrap was weighed, melted, assayed and refined, then cast into bars in bulk.

Zinc volatilization was one reason the US Mint contracted out production of cent blanks in 1943. Zinc dust was produced during cent striking and this not only clogged dies but irritated workers. Refinery workers were constantly subjected to acid vapor, chlorine gas and steam. There are occasional mentions of worker complaints and injuries. Furnace injuries seem to have been less common, possibly because the workers used tongs, had protective gloves and face shields, and the dangers of liquid metal were well known. (The cynical might suggest much of this was aimed at preventing metal loss rather than worker loss.)

In the pre-1960 period very little attention was paid to worker safety - especially to passive sources. Adjusters, for example, complained of vision deterioration, repetitive stress was a problem in some jobs. Workers did not complain much - they needed the jobs - and if they died early or suffered from acid-burnt lungs, that was just part of life, and death.

[Henri Charriere]

@RWB :

I asked because the many windows (which appear to be frosted or translucent, in the 4th and last photo) are closed. Security trumped health concerns.

Edited November 7, 2022 by Quintus Arrius
Die polishing: verb/tense/spelling.

[GoldFinger1969]

On 11/6/2022 at 8:17 PM, Quintus Arrius said:

Off-tangential query:  To your knowledge, has any mint worker, here or overseas suffered from the effects of being subjected to the harmful effects of dust, vapors and fumes discharged in poorly-vetilated furnace areas?  Do workers today wear protective masks?

I have no doubt about that.  But gold isn't asbestos so probably less damage via the unseen than just regular hazards.

[Henri Charriere]

On 11/7/2022 at 10:59 AM, GoldFinger1969 said:

I have no doubt about that.  But gold isn't asbestos so probably less damage via the unseen than just regular hazards.

Seriously, their are parallels with "coal miner's" disease, nail salons workers' use of potent paints and solvents, subway workers and "steel dust," ---- and the fires at the WTC which, for months, fed on a toxic stew of flammable and vaporized debris beyond fire retardants. [It is the exposure to Mercury used to refine gold deposits which makes amateur gold "panning" dangerous.]  I believe the majority of OSHA complaints received today are non-asbestos-related.

[RWB]

The female adjusters worked on the hottest days in rooms with almost no ventilation -- to protect the gold, not the workers. Imagine July in New Orleans....

Gold and silver evaporated during melting and were annually recovered from flues and chimneys -- even from the roof of an adjacent building.

Edited November 7, 2022 by RWB

[Henri Charriere]

On 11/7/2022 at 12:12 PM, RWB said:

....Gold and silver evaporated during melting and were annually recovered from flues and chimneys -- even from the roof of an adjacent building.

[The proofreader's mark at "evaporated" would be "ww" ---- for wrong word.] 

[RWB]

On 11/7/2022 at 3:02 PM, Quintus Arrius said:

[The proofreader's mark at "evaporated" would be "ww" ---- for wrong word.] 

Nope. That is what happened when the heat was too high. Vaporization was another problem that had to be controlled. Each had its set of proposed solutions (no pun intended) and many failures often due to the Mint's insular approach to technology.