Roger Burdette's Saint Gaudens Double Eagles Book 4 4

[zadok]

On 7/25/2022 at 10:57 AM, VKurtB said:

Hemingway’s cats are famous for having six toes per foot. It’s how they track them genetically. They are now found throughout Key West. 

...was not aware...maybe someone could do research n compile a book on that, as long as he named them quint, sawbuck, eagle, double dime, half union, two bits i think we r on safe ground here, ill ck with the OP n ask...by the way Penny has been taken....

[zadok]

On 7/25/2022 at 9:23 AM, GoldFinger1969 said:

Well, since you are on a thread created to discuss Saint Double Eagles, and since you do have some of the coins, might I suggest getting the magnus opus and reading it ?  

...permission to come aboard, seems my skiff was scuttled when i ran aground (read amuck) on the feline tangent, ill try do better from now on...how long is the plank on this thread?...but if u get a chance try take a look at the SDE in that auction i mentioned interested get ur opinion....

[GoldFinger1969]

RWB's PRICE GRIDS:  The price matrices at the end of every coin chapter in the book are an invaluable source of information (kudos to Roger and HA). 

For those of you who have an interest in Double Eagles (Saints or Liberty's) and are relatively new to the forums, just wanted to expound a bit more on stuff I have talked about with Eagle and others regarding what I consider the difference in a big price move vs. a bubble.  Eagle and DiamondSlayer may find this useful.

Now, it may be a matter of semantics but I'll use the 1924 Saint which is as common a gold coin as you can find.  This coin sold for the mid-$200's in MS-65 quality (which may have even been MS-66 or more today) in 1976 and 1977.  By 1980-81 the coin was selling for over $1,250 with the premium to gold even higher than it was before (gold peaked in early 1980).

By the mid-1980's (even though gold had backed off and was in the $300-$400 range), the MS-65 was up 10-fold from the price a decade earlier.  Now THAT is a bubble ! 

The price for a 1924 MS-65 Saint peaked at just over $4,000 in 1989....then fell to $1,500 by 1991.  Gold went down a bit but not by that much.

It's counterintuitive, but when the premium is HIGH and the gold price LOW...that tends to be when it is best to buy numismatic gold.  However, you still might make more money on a big sustained rise in gold by buying pure bullion coins.  You still make $$$ with the numimsatics, just not as much. 

[FlyingAl]

On 8/14/2022 at 10:43 AM, GoldFinger1969 said:

It's counterintuitive, but when the premium is HIGH and the gold price LOW...that tends to be when it is best to buy numismatic gold.  However, you still might make more money on a big sustained rise in gold by buying pure bullion coins.  You still make $$$ with the numimsatics, just not as much. 

I have to disagree with this, because you just proved this statement false unfortunately. If you look at your scenario, this best time to buy was the mid 1970s (gold low premium low) and the worst time to but was 1989 (premium high gold low). The best time to sell is 1989 (premium high and gold low) and the worst time to sell is 1976-77 (gold low premium low). 

 

So the best time to buy numismatic gold is when the gold price is low and the premium is low. 

Edited August 14, 2022 by FlyingAl

[GoldFinger1969]

On 8/14/2022 at 4:23 PM, FlyingAl said:

I have to disagree with this, because you just proved this statement false unfortunately. If you look at your scenario, this best time to buy was the mid 1970s (gold low premium low) and the worst time to but was 1989 (premium high gold low). The best time to sell is 1989 (premium high and gold low) and the worst time to sell is 1976-77 (gold low premium low).  So the best time to buy numismatic gold is when the gold price is low and the premium is low. 

It's not a perfect correlation, Al.....I've posted the charts (I can do it again) and it's not perfect.  If anything, I think the relationship is stronger NOW than it was in the 1970's and 1980's when we were just coming off the fixed price of gold, fixed currencies, inflation, etc.

If you get a bubble or additional price rise in the numismatic coins like Saints and gold is flat or retreats, then that premium will rise and the gain in the price of the Saint is even larger.  However, that was the exception more found in the 1970's and 1980's.  Since the TPGs came into existence, it is rare to find numimsatic (or semi-numismatic as the 1924 Saint MS-65 is considered) coins go UP while gold goes DOWN or is flat.

I do agree:  if you can buy numismatic when the gold price is low and the premium is low, you are getting the Best of Both Worlds.  Then the rise in gold and a rise in premium are a tailwind -- THAT is what buyers experienced a few times from 1973-1990.

[GoldFinger1969]

On 8/14/2022 at 4:23 PM, FlyingAl said:

I have to disagree with this, because you just proved this statement false unfortunately. If you look at your scenario, this best time to buy was the mid 1970s (gold low premium low) and the worst time to but was 1989 (premium high gold low). The best time to sell is 1989 (premium high and gold low) and the worst time to sell is 1976-77 (gold low premium low). So the best time to buy numismatic gold is when the gold price is low and the premium is low. 

Here's some charts that provide more color.  As I said, it's not a situation where my statements are all right (or wrong) nor yours.  But buy and large, you want to avoid the big premium EXCEPT when bullion has based low for a while.

One thing I think we can agree on:  while Saints can go up-or-down based on gold movements (depending how much numismatic and bullion value the coin has), you can lose MUCH MORE from premiums disappearing than from the a drop in the price of gold.

Edited August 18, 2022 by GoldFinger1969

[Cat Bath]

Check out Elite's proof set of saints.  (New owner of the Koessl set)

https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/gold/20-gold-major-sets/st-gaudens-20-gold-basic-set-proof-1908-1915/101

Also check out the consecutive cert. numbers (XXXXX908-XXXXX915) 

The 1913 has a different number

 

Edited August 18, 2022 by Cat Bath

[Cat Bath]

[FlyingAl]

On 8/17/2022 at 9:25 PM, Cat Bath said:

Check out Elite's proof set of saints.  (New owner of the Koessl set)

https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/gold/20-gold-major-sets/st-gaudens-20-gold-basic-set-proof-1908-1915/101

Also check out the consecutive cert. numbers (XXXXX908-XXXXX915) 

The 1913 has a different number

 

Not jealous at all... 

Ok ok I'm REALLY REALLY JEALOUS!

Edited August 18, 2022 by FlyingAl

[GoldFinger1969]

On 8/17/2022 at 11:25 PM, Cat Bath said:

Check out Elite's proof set of saints.  (New owner of the Koessl set)

Anybody know why is it called the Koessl Matte Proof Set ?  Why not Elite Matte Proof Set ?  Are they keeping that name and/or not adding it to the "Elite Collection" maybe because these are proofs and they want them separate ?

Maybe EC will explain here.

[EliteCollection]

Tom Koessl built this amazing set over a few decades, so it's referred to as the Koessl Matte Proof Set. Even though I now own the set, I will likely always refer to it as the Koessl set and will keep the Koessl slab and label as they are amazing.

As far as the certs go, Koessl's attention to detail went as far as getting PCGS to give him custom cert numbers in the format 00DDYYYY, where DD is the denomination and YYYY is the year. 00051912 for a 1912 $5 and 00201915 for a 1915 $20. 

[Henri Charriere]

@EliteCollection:

To your credit, that was an exceedingly humble, respectful and deferential move on your part well-deserving of recognition. I applaud 👏 your example! 

[GoldFinger1969]

On 8/18/2022 at 4:48 AM, EliteCollection said:

Tom Koessl built this amazing set over a few decades, so it's referred to as the Koessl Matte Proof Set. Even though I now own the set, I will likely always refer to it as the Koessl set and will keep the Koessl slab and label as they are amazing.

That's a nice tribute.  Kudos !! 

[GoldFinger1969]

EC, make sure you are sitting down when you read this:  

Laura/Legend said over at CAC Forums:  "I was shocked he (Simpson) sold the ultra. He was really stressed at the time. I think he deeply regrets it. He is still mad at me selling his other one. We tried to buy the PCGS 1907 MS67 CAC $20 in the CSNS Sale. Ooops we lost. His Saints and $10 Indians rank among the best....For as much as I harp about Simpson, the really best saint set is in CT. A guy has 3+ UHR's, the 27-D Morse 67, 21 in MS66, and the 25-S PCGS MS68, etc, He is not on any registry. He has $10 Indians too. We battled him in Morse and everywhere else."

I'm wondering if that is the "Wall Street Bond Trader" guy who I think has a Top 3 UHR.  Have to check my notes.

[Cat Bath]

On 8/24/2022 at 11:52 PM, GoldFinger1969 said:

21 in MS66

Is she talking about the Duckor?. I think I have seen the others.

So far as the 21 goes. I like the Baker & the Hesselgesser more even though they are graded lower.

I still like the one below because I think spots are cool  I'd grade it a 66

 

Edited August 25, 2022 by Cat Bath

[Henri Charriere]

On 8/25/2022 at 5:28 AM, Cat Bath said:

Is she talking about the Duckor?. I think I have seen the others.

So far as the 21 goes. I like the Baker & the Hesselgesser more even though they are graded lower.

I still like the one below because I think spots are cool  I'd grade it a 66

 

It has an overall attractiveness (eye appeal) which, I have since learned, is an imponderable, elusive quality--exclusive of grade entirely, that can either "make" or "break" a sale.  I like its honey golden hue and vestiges of original mint luster and can definitely see why others would as well.  

 

Edited August 25, 2022 by Quintus Arrius
Correct typo

[Henri Charriere]

@GoldFinger1969:

I understand the 1927-D S-G Double Eagle was auctioned off by HA for a princely sum this week.  Any thoughts about that?

[GoldFinger1969]

On 8/25/2022 at 5:28 AM, Cat Bath said:

Is she talking about the Duckor?. I think I have seen the others. So far as the 21 goes. I like the Baker & the Hesselgesser more even though they are graded lower. I still like the one below because I think spots are cool  I'd grade it a 66 

I'm not sure, I'll research and report back unless someone beats me to it.

But then I saw that EC was an active poster on the CAC Forum so he's up-to-speed on what I posted above.

Also am now wondering if Simpson's sale of coins is related to his divorce.  Not sure he would HAVE to sell, but maybe he chose to.  The estimate of the value ($200 MM) makes it material even to a guy with his net worth.

[GoldFinger1969]

On 8/25/2022 at 9:03 AM, Quintus Arrius said:

@GoldFinger1969:

I understand the 1927-D S-G Double Eagle was auctioned off by HA for a princely sum this week.  Any thoughts about that?

$4,400,000 including bp.  Here's the link with the usual great HA writeup:

https://coins.ha.com/itm/saint-gaudens-double-eagles/double-eagles/1927-d-20-ms66-pcgs-pcgs-9187-/a/1348-3417.s?ic4=ListView-ShortDescription-071515

This is the DALLAS BANK 1927-D; I have the catalog (excerpted in the write-up).  It is listed as the 3rd best 1927-D by HA; I believe other independent writers/periodicals have agreed with that ranking (I have one saved somewhere on my PC; I can check if anybody wants).

I was at the auction for the Stephen Duckor 1927-D 65+ at FUN 2020.  Went for just over $2 MM with BP.

The prices for the 1927-D and the MCMVII Ultra High Relief coins seem to move in lock-step.  Their populations are very similar so maybe that is not a surprise.

[GoldFinger1969]

I'm very interested in this Wall Street bond trader guy who apparently goes for high-end Saints if not entire collections or registry sets (or maybe he does but is keeping it secret).  He may or may not be the same guy referenced as living in CT.  But he supposedly has several UHRs and a nice 1927-D plus some other coins.

It would be ironic if I sent this guy my resume over the years and never hooked up.  Figures, with my luck.....

[GoldFinger1969]

On 8/25/2022 at 5:28 AM, Cat Bath said:

Is she talking about the Duckor?. I think I have seen the others.  So far as the 21 goes. I like the Baker & the Hesselgesser more even though they are graded lower. I still like the one below because I think spots are cool  I'd grade it a 66

I'm not sure, Cat....but don't forget you also have the 2 SP 1921's, too.

[GoldFinger1969]

Very interesting that a recent photo of the 1933 Saint -- I think I saw it over on the CAC Forum posted by someone or EC -- showed a very glittery gold appearance with lots of luster.  You look at the TrueView pics or the ones in Roger's book, and it looks totally bland and dull.

Just goes to show you that lighting and angles make all the difference.

[GoldFinger1969]

May as well show the pics ....here they are:

Edited August 25, 2022 by GoldFinger1969

[Henri Charriere]

On 8/25/2022 at 9:50 AM, GoldFinger1969 said:

....He may or may not be the same guy referenced as living in CT.....

A guy who lives in CT?  I didn't think they'd allow it. That's a fanatic!

[Henri Charriere]

Re:  1933 S.G Double Eagle.  The owner evidently consulted with a top-notch orthopedist. All traces of that leg injury have been dealt with professionally.  There are treatments today that were unavailable in the years since. Great job! Thank you, @GoldFinger1969 for posting these crystal-clear photos.  

[zadok]

On 8/25/2022 at 9:53 AM, GoldFinger1969 said:

Very interesting that a recent photo of the 1933 Saint -- I think I saw it over on the CAC Forum posted by someone or EC -- showed a very glittery gold appearance with lots of luster.  You look at the TrueView pics or the ones in Roger's book, and it looks totally bland and dull.

Just goes to show you that lighting and angles make all the difference.

...u seem to forget the info i sent u months ago about the photos taken of the farouk '33....

[GoldFinger1969]

On 8/25/2022 at 10:44 AM, Quintus Arrius said:

Re:  1933 S.G Double Eagle.  The owner evidently consulted with a top-notch orthopedist. All traces of that leg injury have been dealt with professionally.  There are treatments today that were unavailable in the years since. Great job! Thank you, @GoldFinger1969 for posting these crystal-clear photos.  

You can still see it above.  But I've seen other, earlier photos of the 1933 with a different angle where it is harder to see that gash.  It's still there...still visible....but definitely washed-out.

Again....lighthing and angles.

[GoldFinger1969]

On 8/25/2022 at 10:56 AM, zadok said:

...u seem to forget the info i sent u months ago about the photos taken of the farouk '33....

I will re-check, thanks Zad. A bit tired and overworked of late....my brain has been like a 2-cylinder engine asked to pull an 18-wheeler. 

[Henri Charriere]

On 8/25/2022 at 10:58 AM, GoldFinger1969 said:

You can still see it above.  But I've seen other, earlier photos of the 1933 with a different angle where it is harder to see that gash.  It's still there...still visible....but definitely washed-out.

Again....lighthing and angles.

I don't want to believe my lying eyes. Let's just say, it's nothing like it once was. 

[zadok]

On 8/25/2022 at 10:59 AM, GoldFinger1969 said:

I will re-check, thanks Zad. A bit tired and overworked of late....my brain has been like a 2-cylinder engine asked to pull an 18-wheeler. 

...info was in private msg...maybe u should put into neutral n go in coast mode, smell the roses n sip the tea....