Roger Burdette's Saint Gaudens Double Eagles Book 4 4

[olympicsos]

Since this is related to the Saint Gaudens series in some capacity, question for @RWB, is there any background on the 1906 Barber $20 pattern. I've read that Barber designed the obverse but Morgan designed the reverse, I kind of find it interesting since the liberty eagle with sword seems to be taken from an 1891 pattern piece which Barber designed and was rejected. 

[GoldFinger1969]

On 1/9/2023 at 5:25 PM, olympicsos said:

Since this is related to the Saint Gaudens series in some capacity, question for @RWB, is there any background on the 1906 Barber $20 pattern. I've read that Barber designed the obverse but Morgan designed the reverse, I kind of find it interesting since the liberty eagle with sword seems to be taken from an 1891 pattern piece which Barber designed and was rejected. 

Interesting....Roger's book has lots of information on the Barber vs. ASG conflict, drawn from his RoAC book.  I'll check it out later and report back in case Roger doesn't beat me to it (even if he does, he'll have more info than the book alone ).

[GoldFinger1969]

On 1/8/2023 at 8:12 PM, RWB said:

Counting authentication quantity changes of this date/mint over time -- I don't remember the interval -- at NGC and PCGS. Then comparing rates against earlier and later periods.

I get 193,957 authentication events at PCGS...169,567 at NGC.....discount the NGC by 40%, it sums to 295,697.

So...in just about 8 years the number of events went up by just under 40,000 or about 15%.  

Is that telling you anything ?

[RWB]

There's not a lot to tell. Goldfinger1969 can probably put his hands on the relevant paragraphs faster than I can. The 1906 DE piece was NOT a coinage pattern - it was an engineering test piece to see if raised lettering could be put on a DE. (This process was well known and had been in use in Europe for centuries. A.L.Snowden did some practical tests in 1885, but got no support for the change.)

Edited January 10, 2023 by RWB

[RWB]

On 1/9/2023 at 7:17 PM, GoldFinger1969 said:

I get 193,957 authentication events at PCGS...169,567 at NGC.....discount the NGC by 40%, it sums to 295,697.

So...in just about 8 years the number of events went up by just under 40,000 or about 15%.  

Is that telling you anything ?

Look at a much shorter time span centered on the marketing push.

[GoldFinger1969]

On 1/9/2023 at 5:25 PM, olympicsos said:

Since this is related to the Saint Gaudens series in some capacity, question for @RWB, is there any background on the 1906 Barber $20 pattern. I've read that Barber designed the obverse but Morgan designed the reverse, I kind of find it interesting since the liberty eagle with sword seems to be taken from an 1891 pattern piece which Barber designed and was rejected. 

Looks like the only pattern created is in the Smithsonian:

https://www.pcgs.com/coinfacts/coin/1906-20-j-1773/62230

Interesting pattern....the obverse isn't as appealing to me as the Saint obverse (or even the Liberty obverse which is also dominated by a facial portrait)...the reverse is not as good IMO as the Liberty reverse and WAY BEHIND the Saint reverse, which to me has the best eagle:  in flight...majestic...soaring.  Just beautiful !!

Edited January 10, 2023 by GoldFinger1969

[GoldFinger1969]

On 1/9/2023 at 5:25 PM, olympicsos said:

I've read that Barber designed the obverse but Morgan designed the reverse, I kind of find it interesting since the liberty eagle with sword seems to be taken from an 1891 pattern piece which Barber designed and was rejected. 

Well, Barber must have loved what ASG eventually designed as he grabbed 8 of the MCMVII UHRs !! 

Nothing about the $20 Barber in the Saints book, Olympics.  But if you search the internet there's some stuff here-and-there like the PCGS link I posted above.

Thank God TR hired ASG !! 

[zadok]

On 1/9/2023 at 7:22 PM, GoldFinger1969 said:

Looks like the only pattern created is in the Smithsonian:

https://www.pcgs.com/coinfacts/coin/1906-20-j-1773/62230

Interesting pattern....the obverse isn't as appealing to me as the Saint obverse (or even the Liberty obverse which is also dominated by a facial portrait)...the reverse is not as good IMO as the Liberty reverse and WAY BEHIND the Saint reverse, which to me has the best eagle:  in flight...majestic...soaring.  Just beautiful !!

 

...majestic reverse yes but basically a refinement of Gobrecht's dollar reverse not a totally original design by ASG....

[GoldFinger1969]

On 1/9/2023 at 10:24 PM, zadok said:

...majestic reverse yes but basically a refinement of Gobrecht's dollar reverse not a totally original design by ASG....

The tighter angle of the wings on the Saint is much nicer, IMO.  Gobrecht's isn't bad, though. 

Also like that the breast feathers on the Saint eagle are a good "high point" to look for wear/rub. 

[zadok]

On 1/9/2023 at 10:58 PM, GoldFinger1969 said:

The tighter angle of the wings on the Saint is much nicer, IMO.  Gobrecht's isn't bad, though. 

Also like that the breast feathers on the Saint eagle are a good "high point" to look for wear/rub. 

...$20 saints easy to grade...ASG better sculptor than coin designer, he tended to use other artist's designs, personally think he was bored by doing coin designs n considered them below his level...but one had to pay the rent in the '20's as well....

[GoldFinger1969]

Got the "1921" book yesterday....looks like "easy" reading with 220 pages of that "rough" paper that is easy to turn. 

Maybe I'll create a thread or talk about it here or in another existing thread but I couldn't help but go to one page on the Gold Standard and note that right before WW I started.....30,000 Frenchmen formed a line over 1 mile long to get their gold out of the Bank of France.  "The people knew what their government was loath to admit:  whatever else would come out of this war, the franc would be a loser."   

This goes to the desirability of U.S. gold coins being held in such quantities overseas....aside from the Civil War, America did not have a history of economic and monetary wipeouts that led to complete evisceration of the currency.  Even "panics" were contained somewhat.  Not so in Europe until the end of WW II.

Also from the book....late-July/early-August....with the Panic of 1907 behind them and a war likely in front of them NY'ers took $73 MM in gold from NYC banks.  Credit was tightening, money marker rates hit 8%.

I intend to re-read the relevant passages on the Gold Standard and the time from 1907-1922 in RWB's book and compare how they are written, sources, anectdotes, etc.

Edited January 10, 2023 by GoldFinger1969

[olympicsos]

On 1/9/2023 at 7:36 PM, GoldFinger1969 said:

Well, Barber must have loved what ASG eventually designed as he grabbed 8 of the MCMVII UHRs !! 

Nothing about the $20 Barber in the Saints book, Olympics.  But if you search the internet there's some stuff here-and-there like the PCGS link I posted above.

Thank God TR hired ASG !! 

The rivalry was definitely overstated! I think Barber gets a bad rap for no good reason. 

[GoldFinger1969]

On 1/10/2023 at 10:07 AM, olympicsos said:

The rivalry was definitely overstated! I think Barber gets a bad rap for no good reason. 

I don't know that much about any "rivalry" -- I just know Barber was teed off that TR was giving ASG carte blanche to design the coins and the initial designs (MCMVII UHR and HR) were not practical for mass production.

[GoldFinger1969]

Latest Wells Fargo 1908 NM population census:  7,768 PCGS...5,546 NGC....11,096 combined (with 40% NGC haircut).

I wonder if the normal "haircut" numbers should apply here since there is a belief that any NGC holder was a crack-out from the PCGS original holders and might be grade-inflated.

Edited January 14, 2023 by GoldFinger1969

[GoldFinger1969]

More on Barber from the Heritage archives:

"...One theme that runs through the literature on the production of the Saint-Gaudens coinage is the obstructionism of Charles Barber. This is an easy case to make, and much of Barber's correspondence bears out this theme. But Charles Barber was not the one-dimensional character many make him out to be. He certainly was not an artist remotely near the level of Augustus Saint-Gaudens, but he was certainly a capable die sinker who could lay out coin designs that required only one blow from the dies. He also knew that high relief coins were unsuited to mass production. Barber was willing to work with Mint officials and the president to produce first the Ultra High Relief experimental pieces and then the High Relief twenties. It seems unlikely that Charles Barber was the complete antagonist as he is often portrayed. He enlisted the support of the Dietsch Brothers when he knew he needed further training on the Janvier Reduction Lathe. He obviously recognized the inherent artistic merit of the Saint-Gaudens twenties as his estate contained eight "1907 $20 pattern pieces," believed by Roger Burdette to all be Ultra High Reliefs."

[Cat Bath]

Elite set made public.

https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/gold/20-gold-major-sets/st-gaudens-20-gold-major-varieties-1933-patterns-1907/alltimeset/295475

[GoldFinger1969]

On 1/14/2023 at 1:30 PM, Cat Bath said:

Elite set made public.

https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/gold/20-gold-major-sets/st-gaudens-20-gold-major-varieties-1933-patterns-1907/alltimeset/295475

Wow...I am not an expert on registry sets or scores -- heck, I'm not even at the Novice/Beginner level  -- but that is one DAMN fantastic accumulation of Saint-Gaudens Double Eagles !! 

Congratulations to our friend EC on a history-making collection. 

Hope some of the gold veterans and registry experts here chime in. 

Edited January 14, 2023 by GoldFinger1969

[GoldFinger1969]

Am I doing this right -- I clicked on the 1908-S which says it is CAC (far right column) but after scrolling through the TrueView... I saw the coin in the actual holder but no CAC sticker.

What's up with that ?

The reason I ask is beause David Akers said that the 1908-S Norweb Saint MS-67 CAC was the most beautiful Saint he had ever seen and the one he most regretted selling (not sure who owns it today).

It COULD be the lighting -- I know it can greatly affect photographic appearance -- but this is the most lustrous and reflective Saint I've ever seen, including the UHRs and HR's.

Edited January 14, 2023 by GoldFinger1969

[Sandon]

On 1/14/2023 at 5:10 PM, GoldFinger1969 said:

I saw the coin in the actual holder but no CAC sticker.

   The photo was probably taken after the coin was certified but before it was submitted to CAC.

[RWB]

On 1/10/2023 at 9:52 AM, GoldFinger1969 said:

Got the "1921" book yesterday....looks like "easy" reading with 220 pages of that "rough" paper that is easy to turn.

Grant's book is heavily into the so-called "Austrian School" of economics founded on Carl Menger and Ludwig von Mises (pr: fon Mee' zez). This belief group avoids data, measurement, cause-effect and careful examination of facts in favor of a priori "logic." The result is usually a highly skewed and inaccurate presentation that reads more like a marketing pitch for some untested remedy for Alzheimer's than anything of meaningful utility. Grant's attempt is an good idea lost in his effort to squeeze a lot of conflicting data into a tiny economic construct.

Certainly give it a read -- it's not dense and requires little thought. Just go past the hyperbole and twisted use of anecdote (like the NY $73 million stuff), and try to pull out something useful.

(If you want factual material go to the first couple of chapters of my new book, Saudi Gold and other Tales from the Mint. This describes the various gold standards and how they worked - or didn't work.)

[GoldFinger1969]

On 1/14/2023 at 6:38 PM, RWB said:

Grant's book is heavily into the so-called "Austrian School" of economics founded on Carl Menger and Ludwig von Mises (pr: fon Mee' zez). This belief group avoids data, measurement, cause-effect and careful examination of facts in favor of a priori "logic." The result is usually a highly skewed and inaccurate presentation that reads more like a marketing pitch for some untested remedy for Alzheimer's than anything of meaningful utility. Grant's attempt is an good idea lost in his effort to squeeze a lot of conflicting data into a tiny economic construct. Certainly give it a read -- it's not dense and requires little thought. Just go past the hyperbole and twisted use of anecdote (like the NY $73 million stuff), and try to pull out something useful. (If you want factual material go to the first couple of chapters of my new book, Saudi Gold and other Tales from the Mint. This describes the various gold standards and how they worked - or didn't work.)

I'm reading the Liberty DE book and the 1921 book at the same time. 

Grant's book has lots of anectdotes, but it also has lots of facts.  The biggest problem is that modern NBER and BLS/DOC data didn't begin until the late-1920's.  So unemployment, GDP, inflation, and other data points are from various sources and often not comparable over many years.

I'm taking notes....jotting down little facts...and will do likewise with relevant passages from your book.  Then I'll compare and post here. 

Edited January 15, 2023 by GoldFinger1969

[zadok]

On 1/14/2023 at 7:26 PM, GoldFinger1969 said:

I'm reading the Liberty DE book and the 1921 book at the same time. 

Grant's book has lots of anectdotes, but it also has lots of facts.  The biggest problem is that modern NBER and BLS/DOC data didn't begin until the late-1920's.  So unemployment, GDP, inflation, and other data points are from various sources and often not comparable over many years.

I'm taking notes....jotting down little facts...and will do likewise with relevant passages from your book.  Then I'll compare and post here. 

...while ur comparing, compare the number of copies sold for each....

[GoldFinger1969]

On 1/14/2023 at 7:36 PM, zadok said:

...while ur comparing, compare the number of copies sold for each....

I have no idea of how many each sold but I'd be shocked if "1921" didn't sell alot more:  it's a broader economic study...it's not a narrow niche like SGDEs.........it cost 70% less than RWB's book....and I'm sure Grant bought a bunch to distribute to his clients since he runs a well-respected financial newsletter and was the original CURRENT YIELD columnist for BARRON's before venturing off on his own.

I actually applied for a job with him decades ago after subscribing to his newsletter.

[zadok]

On 1/15/2023 at 1:52 AM, GoldFinger1969 said:

I have no idea of how many each sold but I'd be shocked if "1921" didn't sell alot more:  it's a broader economic study...it's not a narrow niche like SGDEs.........it cost 70% less than RWB's book....and I'm sure Grant bought a bunch to distribute to his clients since he runs a well-respected financial newsletter and was the original CURRENT YIELD columnist for BARRON's before venturing off on his own.

I actually applied for a job with him decades ago after subscribing to his newsletter.

...thanks for the insight, i think the gleanings from ur comment r "broader" , "niche" n "cost"...the more universal  appeal of any book the more economical it is to market, the more niche a book is the less economical it is to market n the less expensive it is follows hand-in-hand...that is the formula used by QDB in his super successful publications, additionally im certain he has little to no issues in attracting publishing houses...for the niche publications to gain wide spread utilization n acclaim i believe Bill Bugert's approach of free online access is the successful path, however, the few hardbound copies of his books (self published) bring mid three figure prices if/when they appear on the market...my comments here simply echo those of Vkurt on the same subject...books on some of the niche markets e.g. the coins that World Colonial collects often sell for more than the coins they discuss, as do some auction catalogs...its a weird world our hobby often takes us to....

...not to become personal, but just exactly what propelled u into the financial arena? n did ur numismatic interests evolve out of the financial side of the hobby or was it there before ur chosen path?....

[GoldFinger1969]

On 1/15/2023 at 8:42 AM, zadok said:

...not to become personal, but just exactly what propelled u into the financial arena? n did ur numismatic interests evolve out of the financial side of the hobby or was it there before ur chosen path?....

Majored in economics in college so a natural segue.  Had a small bit of $$$ from the grandparents waiting for me after graduation but Dad said I'm not getting it  unless I can show him that I can invest/manage/preserve it properly, even if only with CDs (this was 1984 remember, when CD's were at 10-12%).  So I learned alot about the markets very quickly (I liked the Alan Abelson's BARRON's commercials, so I started reading that). 

Worked for a few large private banks and some very small financial firms over the next few decades...didn't exactly have the career I wanted but that's another story for another day in another forum .

I had wanted to buy a Krugerrand when reading about gold in 1973 or 1974 or 1975 with some lawn/snow shoveling $$$ I had but Dad wouldn't let me....so when I had a small surplus from my college payment account in the early-1980's I used it to buy a 1/10th ounce Krugerrand.  Still got it !! 

It's funny....I had clients and family mention Saint-Gaudens coins over the years (mostly 1990's) and I never got my interest piqued....I would say "I only know the bullion coins, I don't know about those" and direct them to Blanchard or Monex.  I only got my interest spurred when I bought the 2009 UHR from The Mint and then learned all about the re-creation and the originals.  That led me to the Saints and pre-1933 gold...a few purchases here and there (not enough $$$ )....and LOTS of reading and postings to make up for the lack of purchases.  So I've really only been a follower of the series and Double Eagles and other gold coins for a bit over a decade or so.

And 76 pages later...here I am !! 

 

Edited January 15, 2023 by GoldFinger1969

[zadok]

On 1/15/2023 at 11:16 AM, GoldFinger1969 said:

Majored in economics in college so a natural segue.  Had a small bit of $$$ from the grandparents waiting for me after graduation but Dad said I'm not getting it  unless I can show him that I can invest/manage/preserve it properly, even if only with CDs (this was 1984 remember, when CD's were at 10-12%).  So I learned alot about the markets very quickly (I liked the Alan Abelson's BARRON's commercials, so I started reading that). 

Worked for a few large private banks and some very small financial firms over the next few decades...didn't exactly have the career I wanted but that's another story for another day in another forum .

I had wanted to buy a Krugerrand when reading about gold in 1973 or 1974 or 1975 with some lawn/snow shoveling $$$ I had but Dad wouldn't let me....so when I had a small surplus from my college payment account in the early-1980's I used it to buy a 1/10th ounce Krugerrand.  Still got it !! 

It's funny....I had clients and family mention Saint-Gaudens coins over the years (mostly 1990's) and I never got my interest piqued....I would say "I only know the bullion coins, I don't know about those" and direct them to Blanchard or Monex.  I only got my interest spurred when I bought the 2009 UHR from The Mint and then learned all about the re-creation and the originals.  That led me to the Saints and pre-1933 gold...a few purchases here and there (not enough $$$ )....and LOTS of reading and postings to make up for the lack of purchases.  So I've really only been a follower of the series and Double Eagles and other gold coins for a bit over a decade or so.

And 76 pages later...here I am !! 

 

...interesting n logical path, would appear that the bullion was ur transitional vehicle...i had a few associates during my military career that knew i was investing heavily into coins n wanted some diversity, so i started buying them rolls of circ morgans n br sovereigns (sovereigns were a bit cheaper than krugerands or kronas) one got interested in the morgans n started putting together sets in the whitman albums one of the other guys actually found a dansco sovereign album n started filling the holes the rest basically cashed out when they realized significant returns on their investments....

[GoldFinger1969]

MCMVII Ultra-High Reliefs:   In the Ultra-High Relief section....somewhat farcical.....the Mint BILLED Mrs. Saint-Gaudens (Augustus' widow) $20.12 (including postage) when she requested a UHR.  

One...cannot believe that they didn't comp her the coin or a few coins.   I mean, her husband dies designing what was known even then to be a very beautiful, artistic, and historic coin.  And they send her a bill !!  "Hello Mrs. Saint-Gaudens....sorry for the loss of your husband....we have your coin for you, that'll be $20...oh yeah, we'll need another 12 cents for postage."  Talk about tacky !! 

Second....for a group giving ASG and his assistants agita, they sure liked those UHR patterns.  I'm surprised given the demand for the coins -- Barber got 8, I believe -- that they didn't strike more for themselves and other VIPs.  Only 19 were struck.  Imagine if they had made a few dozen, if not a few hundred.

[olympicsos]

On 2/2/2023 at 12:07 AM, GoldFinger1969 said:

MCMVII Ultra-High Reliefs:   In the Ultra-High Relief section....somewhat farcical.....the Mint BILLED Mrs. Saint-Gaudens (Augustus' widow) $20.12 (including postage) when she requested a UHR.  

One...cannot believe that they didn't comp her the coin or a few coins.   I mean, her husband dies designing what was known even then to be a very beautiful, artistic, and historic coin.  And they send her a bill !!  "Hello Mrs. Saint-Gaudens....sorry for the loss of your husband....we have your coin for you, that'll be $20...oh yeah, we'll need another 12 cents for postage."  Talk about tacky !! 

Second....for a group giving ASG and his assistants agita, they sure liked those UHR patterns.  I'm surprised given the demand for the coins -- Barber got 8, I believe -- that they didn't strike more for themselves and other VIPs.  Only 19 were struck.  Imagine if they had made a few dozen, if not a few hundred.

Barber gets a lot of hate for no reason IMO. Barber was right about the technical difficulties. Even though we have the technology then, I think Barber would've done a better job than some of the mint staff out there now. 

[GoldFinger1969]

On 2/2/2023 at 9:59 AM, olympicsos said:

Barber gets a lot of hate for no reason IMO. Barber was right about the technical difficulties. Even though we have the technology then, I think Barber would've done a better job than some of the mint staff out there now. 

Barber was definitely right about the difficulties striking the UHRs....I have to check but the HRs definitely were struck at a faster pace.  At least with those we got over 12,000.

Still, 19 coins/patterns in total is really very few when you think about it.  Oh well, too bad.

[RWB]

On 2/2/2023 at 12:07 AM, GoldFinger1969 said:

annot believe that they didn't comp her the coin or a few coins

No one got complimentary coins. Mint accounts had to balance and the director spent time during several months collecting from officials to whom Roosevelt had sent coins. Mint contingency accounts did not allow complimentary coins -- all had to be paid for. Augusta got one EHR only because the President ordered one of the two in the Mint Cabinet to be sold to her. The pieces in Barber's personal collection were acquired the same way -- he paid for them.

Edited February 6, 2023 by RWB