Roger Burdette's Saint Gaudens Double Eagles Book
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2,126 posts in this topic

On 7/18/2022 at 5:33 PM, RWB said:

Edit to read: "...only adds incredulity..."

"cogito, ergo sum." I think, therefore I am. But I sense you're not having any of that. Your standard of "proof" is impossibly high.

Incidentally, I got to the root of the provenance vs. pedigree dispute. It seems Merriam Webster conceded they are obliged to accept and include non-standard word or term usage in their dictionary using frequency read or heard as a barometer. So while x insists that he is correct, and y insists otherwise, both are obligated to accept z's persistence in using "horseless-carriage" as the only proper term for car. (And Bostonians may pronounce car, as kah, if they wish.) I will, however, continue to resist all attempts to ram "business" strike down my throat.   😉 

 

 

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On 7/18/2022 at 6:06 PM, Quintus Arrius said:

Your standard of "proof" is impossibly high.

What a silly remark. The standard of truth MUST be high enough to exclude the false and the lying. Have you accepted the "lie at will" position of so many, as if it did not matter? Are all your roosters  really hens?

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On 7/18/2022 at 6:06 PM, Quintus Arrius said:

"cogito, ergo sum." I think, therefore I am. But I sense you're not having any of that. Your standard of "proof" is impossibly high.

Incidentally, I got to the root of the provenance vs. pedigree dispute. It seems Merriam Webster conceded they are obliged to accept and include non-standard word or term usage in their dictionary using frequency read or heard as a barometer. So while x insists that he is correct, and y insists otherwise, both are obligated to accept z's persistence in using "horseless-carriage" as the only proper term for car. (And Bostonians may pronounce car, as kah, if they wish.) I will, however, continue to resist all attempts to ram "business" strike down my throat.   😉 

 

 

...certain "standards of proof" r self determined n not universially supported...

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On 7/18/2022 at 1:31 PM, VKurtB said:

Asking Fred to recall enough details about the DE seen 25 years previously is asking A LOT. Keep in mind that ALL of them were illegal to have at that time, even the Fenton/Farouk specimen. That one had just been put into the special status by legal agreement. No one was even slightly concerned with “which one” in 1977. They were ALL contraband. 

If you had such a rare and "illegal" coin in front of you, and you were a coin collector, the thing I would do would be to look for distinguishing marks right away.  But maybe that's just me.

Barring that, Fred should have taken out his smartphone and taken some pics. xD

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On 7/18/2022 at 3:42 PM, Quintus Arrius said:

There is evidently more to this than meets the eyes--and ears. Whatever the real reason may be, it should be fairly obvious the "gashed leg" example was not involved. I know nothing about the series beyond their exceptional beauty but the damage to the right leg would be my first and last point of departure. I don't know what was or was not of concern in 1977, but clearly it was on the mind of the Chief Mint Officer some 25 years later. Any gentleman involved in numismatics who is willing to disclose he has property which was apparently surreptitiously removed from a U.S. Mint facility knowing the risk of forfeiture is a consideration, only adds credibility to the observation he made with no axe to grind. A most satisfying answer which only encourages more questions.

But we don't know that.....I haven't seen anything that FW did not see the leg gash and/or looked closely at the obverse and saw nothing detracting there.

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On 7/18/2022 at 5:43 PM, FlyingAl said:

I doubt he would remember it. Grading a coin is something simple, you just calculate all of the marks and how they detract from the perfect 70 grade, with a few added nuances like color or luster. You don't remember those marks, particularly after decades have passed. For example, I have seen a picture of multiple NGC slabbed 1933 double eagles. All I could tell you was that they all looked very similar. I would not remember a single one from another based on that few second glance. 

I get where you are coming from...but looking at an ACTUAL 1933 Double Eagle vs. pictures would definitely impress upon me all details and minutae.

I'd remember where it took place...who was there....what I was wearing...what I was doing right before and after....and then the coin itself.   But again, maybe that's just me.

The fact that a well-known "illegal" coin was shown...and then the Mint Director of Security talked to you....really stands out to me.  But then again, I'm just a regular guy and not a professional coin dealer/collector.

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On 7/22/2022 at 11:39 AM, GoldFinger1969 said:

If you had such a rare and "illegal" coin in front of you, and you were a coin collector, the thing I would do would be to look for distinguishing marks right away.  But maybe that's just me.

Barring that, Fred should have taken out his smartphone and taken some pics. xD

His 1977 vintage smartphone. More like his SLR and a roll of film. 

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On 7/22/2022 at 1:36 PM, VKurtB said:

His 1977 vintage smartphone. More like his SLR and a roll of film. 

Ah, the good old days of taking pictures judiciously and not wasting snapshots. xD

God, what was the cost of a roll of Kodak 35 MM Ektachrome or whatever their top brand was called ?  And then to develop 20 or 40 pictures or whatever it was....purchase and development of a roll had to run $12-$15 I'll bet.  Now, it's basically zero !! xD

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On 7/22/2022 at 1:38 PM, GoldFinger1969 said:

Ah, the good old days of taking pictures judiciously and not wasting snapshots. xD

God, what was the cost of a roll of Kodak 35 MM Ektachrome or whatever their top brand was called ?  And then to develop 20 or 40 pictures or whatever it was....purchase and development of a roll had to run $12-$15 I'll bet.  Now, it's basically zero !! xD

In 1977, a roll of 36 exposure Ektachrome was $7-ish, depending on film speed and about another $6-$8 for processing. I got my Canon F1 in 1977. 

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There a number of factors to consider here.  Given a choice, would you  have given the "King of Errors" a shot at it, knowing he is not a grader, or any number of other people who had not seen the 1977 example? This was a chance encounter at a specific time and place.

Regarding photographs, certainly both may have been available in auctions catalogs. The chief Mint Officer took advantage of a fairly uncommon oppportunity. Maybe photographs take by non-intrusive cell phones were not permitted. (Word has it no one, rules notwithstanding, has demonstrated the guts to tell the Hon. @VKurtB to.put away his Leica, Speed Graphic or massive microscope in the interests of contributing to the cumulative "body of knowledge" since the first "coin," the Lydian stater, was introduced in Asia Minor). :facepalm:

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On 7/22/2022 at 2:20 PM, Quintus Arrius said:

There a number of factors to consider here.  Given a choice, would you  have given the "King of Errors" a shot at it, knowing he is not a grader, or any number of other people who had not seen the 1977 example? This was a chance encounter at a specific time and place.

Regarding photographs, certainly both may have been available in auctions catalogs. The chief Mint Officer took advantage of a fairly uncommon oppportunity. Maybe photographs take by non-intrusive cell phones were not permitted. (Word has it no one, rules notwithstanding, has demonstrated the guts to tell the Hon. @VKurtB to.put away his Leica, Speed Graphic or massive microscope in the interests of contributing to the cumulative "body of knowledge" since the first "coin," the Lydian stater, was introduced in Asia Minor). :facepalm:

I’m planning my VIP tour at the Royal Mint in Wales. They aren’t going to allow ANY type of camera, even a phone, and I am bumming heavily about that. 

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On 7/22/2022 at 4:21 PM, VKurtB said:

I’m planning my VIP tour at the Royal Mint in Wales. They aren’t going to allow ANY type of camera, even a phone, and I am bumming heavily about that. 

Really ?  They confiscate them before the tour ?

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On 7/22/2022 at 4:21 PM, VKurtB said:

I’m planning my VIP tour at the Royal Mint in Wales. They aren’t going to allow ANY type of camera, even a phone, and I am bumming heavily about that. 

For the VIP "tour" visitors are stripped naked and given a pair of booties to wear. All personal items are left with their clothes in a small bag that is locked in a vault until the tour is over. Before going through the facility, everyone also has a body opening search, a magnetometer scan and and X-ray scan. If any dental gold is present, your mouth is wired shut for the tour duration. Even the Queen had to endure this -- and she wanted to bring in her pet legless dog-worm things, too.

All this is quite similar to the new voting laws proposed in Alabama -- except the Queen can't vote there.

Edited by RWB
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On 7/23/2022 at 8:27 AM, RWB said:

For the VIP "tour" visitors are stripped naked and given a pair of booties to wear. All personal items are left with their clothes in a small bag that is locked in a vault until the tour is over. Before going through the facility, everyone also has a body opening search, a magnetometer scan and and X-ray scan. If any dental gold is present, your mouth is wired shut for the tour duration. Even the Queen had to endure this -- and she wanted to bring in her pet legless dog-worm things, too.

All this is quite similar to the new voting laws proposed in Alabama -- except the Queen can't vote there.

I will skip the Broadway theatrics and settle for the cheaper non-VIP.  You've been there before; just tell them Quintus sent you.

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On 7/22/2022 at 8:36 PM, GoldFinger1969 said:

Really ?  They confiscate them before the tour ?

Yup, put them in a locker. 

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On 7/23/2022 at 7:27 AM, RWB said:

For the VIP "tour" visitors are stripped naked and given a pair of booties to wear. All personal items are left with their clothes in a small bag that is locked in a vault until the tour is over. Before going through the facility, everyone also has a body opening search, a magnetometer scan and and X-ray scan. If any dental gold is present, your mouth is wired shut for the tour duration. Even the Queen had to endure this -- and she wanted to bring in her pet legless dog-worm things, too.

All this is quite similar to the new voting laws proposed in Alabama -- except the Queen can't vote there.

There are no “new” voting laws in Alabama. Our state officials fought tooth and nail to retain the many decades old election laws, like Pennsylvania didn’t do. I even have to present a photo ID (free if you don’t drive) in order to vote. In PA, only first time voters in a polling place need to show ID. Alabama doesn’t do no-excuse  mail voting and we don’t do drop boxes. Mail means you need a reason and United States Postal Service mail, not FedEx or anyone else. 

Edited by VKurtB
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You know what the BRM rules for the VIP tour mean, right? No Charmy Harker style picture tour for here. I might take a snap or two of authentic Scottish haggis later on in the trip, but those with easily disturbed constitutions might want to use plastic wrap on their screens. The trip is taking shape. About six nights in London first, then the BRM tour near Cardiff, then a HUGE train trip up the west coast and the Scottish Highlands up to Inverness. Short days, long nights. But those short days are almost 100% “golden hour” lighting. Not sure where we’ll fly home from. 

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Doesn't the Royal Mint themselves release photos of the place in their annual reports and other marketing materials ?

What are they afraid of with some non-closeup photos ?

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On 7/24/2022 at 11:46 AM, GoldFinger1969 said:

Doesn't the Royal Mint themselves release photos of the place in their annual reports and other marketing materials ?

What are they afraid of with some non-closeup photos ?

The US Mints do the same thing. Trying to protect details of coining process and equipment. Treasury-approved photos are reviewed by department heads as "security" flaws, not as "numismatic" interest.

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On 7/24/2022 at 11:42 AM, VKurtB said:

You know what the BRM rules for the VIP tour mean, right? No Charmy Harker style picture tour for here. I might take a snap or two of authentic Scottish haggis later on in the trip, but those with easily disturbed constitutions might want to use plastic wrap on their screens. The trip is taking shape. About six nights in London first, then the BRM tour near Cardiff, then a HUGE train trip up the west coast and the Scottish Highlands up to Inverness. Short days, long nights. But those short days are almost 100% “golden hour” lighting. Not sure where we’ll fly home from. 

...yea but if Charmy brought them some of her wine they mite soften up a bit...maybe u could snap a pic of a scone or two for us...n please take pics of every cat u see, theres some here that would find that purrfect....

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On 7/24/2022 at 5:51 PM, zadok said:

...yea but if Charmy brought them some of her wine they mite soften up a bit...maybe u could snap a pic of a scone or two for us...n please take pics of every cat u see, theres some here that would find that purrfect....

We met literally dozens of British well cared for outdoor kitties when we were there in Nov.-Dec. 2019. They are delightful companions. Not feral, yet not fully domesticated. Cardiff had many milling about. They also had rodents under control. I suggest Roger spend some time in Key West at the old Hemingway home. 

Edited by VKurtB
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On 7/24/2022 at 7:09 PM, VKurtB said:

We met literally dozens of British well cared for outdoor kitties when we were there in Nov.-Dec. 2019. They are delightful companions. Not feral, yet not fully domesticated. Cardiff had many milling about. They also had rodents under control. I suggest Roger spend some time in Key West at the old Hemingway home. 

...is that a home for feral authors n compilers?....

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On 7/24/2022 at 8:06 PM, zadok said:

...is that a home for feral authors n compilers?....

Why not? Ernest Hemingway, Roger the B, same thing, right?

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On 7/24/2022 at 11:34 PM, VKurtB said:

Why not? Ernest Hemingway, Roger the B, same thing, right?

...well one won the Nobel Prize other not going to happen, one a writer other a compiler, i have read hemingway havent read the other, never met hemingway have met the other, hemingway drove ambulances n chased submarines other chases fantasies, hemingway was at omaha beach other at virginia beach, hemingway was a warrior other a whiner...im struggling for simularities did hemingway not like cats?....

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On 7/24/2022 at 11:32 PM, Quintus Arrius said:

Wait'll the BACK ON TRACK fella gets a load of this.:roflmao:

...we r coining phrases for footnotes...for volume 2...but u r correct we r far afield n will try to cat scat our way back to the fold, its diff to not get bored at this advanced age, now if i can just find my compass....

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On 7/25/2022 at 8:50 AM, zadok said:

i have read hemingway havent read the other

Well, since you are on a thread created to discuss Saint Double Eagles, and since you do have some of the coins, might I suggest getting the magnus opus and reading it ?  xD

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On 7/25/2022 at 9:23 AM, GoldFinger1969 said:

Well, since you are on a thread created to discuss Saint Double Eagles, and since you do have some of the coins, might I suggest getting the magnus opus and reading it ?  xD

...ill pass, i try to avoid verbosity n tedium, puts me to sleep n gives me gas...im bit more into original research when it comes to coinage data...but appreciate, ur looking out for me...speaking of SDE, there is an estate sale in Johnson City TN this sat has a mess of SDE all gem bu etc but from what i saw mostly all common dates, there r photos online but only so-so quality, u can access it by going to auctionzip.com n go to calendar for the 30th n search for Johnson City etc...u will figure it out....

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On 7/25/2022 at 7:50 AM, zadok said:

...well one won the Nobel Prize other not going to happen, one a writer other a compiler, i have read hemingway havent read the other, never met hemingway have met the other, hemingway drove ambulances n chased submarines other chases fantasies, hemingway was at omaha beach other at virginia beach, hemingway was a warrior other a whiner...im struggling for simularities did hemingway not like cats?....

Hemingway’s cats are famous for having six toes per foot. It’s how they track them genetically. They are now found throughout Key West. 

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