Roger Burdette's Saint Gaudens Double Eagles Book
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2,204 posts in this topic

On 9/25/2022 at 10:20 AM, GoldFinger1969 said:

Actually....I wasn't. xD

I get the total population count from NGC at 768,890 and for PCGS at 749,105.  Clearly, there are cross-overs (double-counts) and while this is above my pay grade I believe a ball park figure is to haircut the total by about 40% from what I have read (correct me if I am way off).

So eliminating about 40% of the PCGS count and summing up gives me just over 1.2 MM coins.

...plus the 3.9 million thats uncertified....

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Hmmm... some 30-odd years of wrecked ships.  Would it be too much of an imposition to ask the approximate final coordinates of three of those sea-going vessels? The gold? Not at all! I simply want to check the records of the ship manifests to see if they are in accord, in any way, with the wild assertions being bandied about here in the absence of specific first-hand knowledge.   :roflmao:

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On 9/25/2022 at 5:51 PM, Quintus Arrius said:

Hmmm... some 30-odd years of wrecked ships.  

Outside of that 30-year quest with the missing maps that we talked about earlier in this thread (name of ship escapes me)....I don't think there are any sizeable Liberty or Saint DE hoards or supplies in known ships that sunk.

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On 9/25/2022 at 4:28 PM, RWB said:

For 1877 to 1907 Liberty DE.  Prior to 1877 there are too many wrecked ships to get meaningful numbers.

Since we knew about the SSCA, wouldn't it stand to reason there were no other big quantities on any of the other shipwrecks ? 

It would have been known at the time, like the SSCA was known in 1857 (and probably helped give the economic downturn of that year more bite).

Edited by GoldFinger1969
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On 9/25/2022 at 10:12 PM, GoldFinger1969 said:

Since we knew about the SSCA, wouldn't it stand to reason there were no other big quantities on any of the other shipwrecks ? 

It would have been known at the time, like the SSCA was known in 1857 (and probably helped give the economic downturn of that year more bite).

Multiple small quantities add up to large quantities. Almost all DE that landed were melted, made into local coin and sent back to USA.

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On 9/25/2022 at 10:12 PM, GoldFinger1969 said:

Since we knew about the SSCA, wouldn't it stand to reason there were no other big quantities on any of the other shipwrecks ? 

It would have been known at the time, like the SSCA was known in 1857 (and probably helped give the economic downturn of that year more bite).

I believe there are a handful but, unfortunately, they quickly became lost to history because they are inaccessible.   The reason why the S.S. Central America was considered for recovery was because enough advances in submerssibles had been made to deem her accessible.   You don't know what you may find until you go down and take a look.

The R.M.S. Titanic which did not carry gold or silver in any notable quantity, was discovered when her distinct boilers were found on the ocean floor.  The S.S. Central America was located when her distinct wooden side wheel paddles were found.   I am sure the S.S. Republic was located the same way.

Edited by Quintus Arrius
Usual die polishing.
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On 9/26/2022 at 5:52 AM, RWB said:

Multiple small quantities add up to large quantities. Almost all DE that landed were melted, made into local coin and sent back to USA.

I was thinking more about ships travelling from one part of the USA to the other.

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On 9/26/2022 at 7:28 PM, RWB said:

For DE the primary movement was out of the country, never to be seen again. I don't recall if the SF mint DE were being shipped on government account or private.

The SSCA was going from SanFran to NYC.

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On 9/26/2022 at 10:28 PM, GoldFinger1969 said:

The SSCA was going from SanFran to NYC.

Aw man, I got 'im!  I got 'im!  The SSCA was on the Eastern side of the isthmus of Panama.  The coins, etc., were shipped down to the western side of the isthmus, horse-back ridden and boated locally to the Eastern side, and then loaded onto the SSCA for the long, arduous trek to ports of call in the North.

Am I right or wrong Goldfinger?  Am I right or wrong?  Let's have one for the Gipper!   🤔 

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As I remember from the archives, government losses (i.e., never recovered) of gold in shipment were small and usually involved military payments. Private shipment losses were more extensive, poorly documented, occasionally not insured at full value, and had no specific purpose. Any recovery was only occasionally reported publicly.

0.46% is merely a semi-educated guess of something that can never be determined with much accuracy - there is simply no enough data.

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@GoldFinger1969:

Two non-Earth-shaking details...

The S.S. SONORA handled the first leg of the journey southward to the western side of the Isthmus of Panama.

The steam ship was off-loaded and the gold coins and bullion shipped by rail about 50 miles to the eastern side of the Isthmus, where it was then loaded onto the S.S. CENTRAL AMERICA.  

The only other "viable" alternative, in the absence of a transcontinental railroad, was shipping it thousands of miles down and around the southernmost tip of South America and contending with the dangerous southern current and seas.  (thumbsu

[Let it never be said that Q.A. has never contributed anything of substance on the various numismatic threads comprising the Forum.]

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On 9/25/2022 at 4:28 PM, RWB said:

For 1877 to 1907 Liberty DE.  Prior to 1877 there are too many wrecked ships to get meaningful numbers.

Just want to make sure I understand....for Liberty's and/or Saints (or maybe all coins ?)....you are saying 0.46% of total mintage is a good approximation for the total of NON-TPG GRADED coins out there ?

Presumably, that number has to be slightly adjusted DOWN over time, right, to account for stragglers sent in for grading over time, right ?  As more of the non-certified stash comes out for grading, the number will adjust downward ?

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On 9/30/2022 at 2:18 PM, RWB said:

All DE to 1907. The quantity will always decline over time due to attrition.

Got it....what about DE after 1907 ?  A little higher ?

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On 10/1/2022 at 2:11 AM, GoldFinger1969 said:

Got it....what about DE after 1907 ?  A little higher ?

What I found is in the the DE book.

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Liberty Pattern Judd-1776:  This pattern/coin is apparently called J-1776 but also J-1905, I'm not sure why.  Anybody know ?

I believe this coin is in the hands of either Bob Simpson or the anonymous CT collector who has 3 UHRs.  The book says East Coast collecot/CT collector....but maybe it was sold since to Simpson.

Judd-1776 Liberty Pattern.jpg

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I do not wish to interrupt the momentum of your thread chugging along now for over 2-1/2 years, but at what point, off the top of your head, did S-G double eagles become largely the province of investors as opposed to collectors who've largely been priced out?

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On 10/15/2022 at 10:56 AM, Quintus Arrius said:

I do not wish to interrupt the momentum of your thread chugging along now for over 2-1/2 years, but at what point, off the top of your head, did S-G double eagles become largely the province of investors as opposed to collectors who've largely been priced out?

Excellent question, if you read the BOB SIMPSON thread over at CAC Forums you'd see who us peons are up against.  Not that they aren't fine people -- like our own EC (who also posts over at CF) -- they just play in another stratosphere.

Investors vs. Collectors....for high-end pieces, sure.  When you are dealing with super-wealthy people and billionaires who are -- or could be -- completely price-insensitive, there is nothing you can do about it.  Coins that cost 4 and 5-figures 30-40 years ago today cost high-6 figures and even 7-figures....with the high-end going for 8-figures pretty soon (to join the 1933 DE).

And the demand for some of the super-rare coins or patterns can be higher than that for the 1933 DE (though the prices haven't eclipsed it yet).

If Simpson had decided he wanted the 1933 DE, imagine what it would have cost him -- or EC.  :o

At least we can still play in our little sandbox of bullion to low-60's MCMVII HR's or about $2,000 to $20,000 or so.

I'll do what I did with that freezing pool my mom used to send me for lousy swimming lessons....I'll stick to the very shallow portion of the pool/coin prices, thank you very much. xD

Edited by GoldFinger1969
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On 10/15/2022 at 11:12 AM, GoldFinger1969 said:

Excellent question, if you read the BOB SIMPSON thread over at CAC Forums you'd see who us peons are up against.  Not that they aren't fine people -- like our own EC (who also posts over at CF) -- they just play in another stratosphere.

Investors vs. Collectors....for high-end pieces, sure.  When you are dealing with super-wealthy people and billionaires who are -- or could be -- completely price-insensitive, there is nothing you can do about it.  Coins that cost 4 and 5-figures 30-40 years ago today cost high-6 figures and even 7-figures....with the high-end going for 8-figures pretty soon (to join the 1933 DE).

And the demand for some of the super-rare coins or patterns can be higher than that for the 1933 DE (though the prices haven't eclipsed it yet).

If Simpson had decided he wanted the 1933 DE, imagine what it would have cost him -- or EC.  :o

At least we can still play in our little sandbox of bullion to low-60's MCMVII HR's or about $2,000 to $20,000 or so.

I'll do what I did with that freezing pool my mom used to send me for lousy swimming lessons....I'll stick to the very shallow portion of the pool/coin prices, thank you very much. xD

...point is that st gaudens twenties did not circulate n r basically bullion coins n virtually not collectible in circulated grades...so everything gravitates to the super grades n the elite, its a prestige thing...u dont see many collectors putting together a set of st gaudens in ms61....

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