Roger Burdette's Saint Gaudens Double Eagles Book 4 4

[Henri Charriere]

On 12/4/2022 at 8:57 PM, GoldFinger1969 said:

I'm surprised there weren't more Roosters struck as the U.S. coins (including DEs) were very popular with the French.  This would include striking 100 Franc coins, closer to 1 ounce.  But anything, really.

Huge incentive to strike their own coins with U.S. coins going for double the spot price of gold.

[If knowledge were gaughed at having a good idea of exactly what it is a man does not know, I would be qualified as brilliant. Sorry if that sounded a bit Donald Rumsfeld-ish, but the entire Rooster run is shrouded in impenetrable secrecy.  I suspect I'd have to put my nose to the grindstone to get at the answers but with my luck they'd all be recorded in moldering logbooks quietly disintegrating in a vast non-climate-controlled repository---- written in French!]     

[GoldFinger1969]

On 12/4/2022 at 9:51 PM, Quintus Arrius said:

[If knowledge were gaughed at having a good idea of exactly what it is a man does not know, I would be qualified as brilliant. Sorry if that sounded a bit Donald Rumsfeld-ish, but the entire Rooster run is shrouded in impenetrable secrecy.  I suspect I'd have to put my nose to the grindstone to get at the answers but with my luck they'd all be recorded in moldering logbooks quietly disintegrating in a vast non-climate-controlled repository---- written in French!] 

Are there any books on Roosters ?  Year-by-year stuff....like Roger did with DEs here or Akers and Bowers did in smaller treatises.

Edited December 5, 2022 by GoldFinger1969

[zadok]

On 12/4/2022 at 11:29 PM, GoldFinger1969 said:

Are there any books on Roosters ?  Year-by-year stuff....like Roger did with DEs here or Akers and Bowers did in smallter treatises.

...of course...the USDA publishes a poultry production n value summary tabulation each year (2020 9.22 billion) u can even get egg production for the non-roosters if so desired....

[GoldFinger1969]

On 12/5/2022 at 9:15 AM, zadok said:

...of course...the USDA publishes a poultry production n value summary tabulation each year (2020 9.22 billion) u can even get egg production for the non-roosters if so desired....

I cracked up at this....really fell into it.....good one, Zad !!  

[zadok]

On 12/5/2022 at 10:54 AM, GoldFinger1969 said:

I cracked up at this....really fell into it.....good one, Zad !!  

...."cracked" up....hmmm ...maybe a bit subliminal on ur part?....

[GoldFinger1969]

There is so much useful information in RWB's Saints DE book that it includes the footnotes and bibliography.  For me, I  went back over the book and just scanned for relevant sentences or paragraphs on hoards, coinage, gold flows, etc.  I cut-and-pasted  them into my Word Doc that keeps all this useless trivia but figured it might be of interest to any of you still with us as we approach 75 pages on this thread.

Here's 1 tidbit I found very interesting:

"If one estimates that $1 million in coin left the country per week from October through December 1931, followed by $5 million per week through the first week of February, 1932, the total export to France, Switzerland, Belgium and other countries would have been $37 million. Considered as ordinary international business, this would have been a small sum; however, as coins intended specifically for hoards it was a considerable amount.  When gold coins were later repatriated to the United States it is possible that many of these came from personal hoards, rather than normal trade payments as commonly assumed."

These gold flows were partly a result of Europe being deeper into recession/depression and by 1931 all of them off the gold standard while the U.S. remained until 1933.

But Roger's analysis flies with what we know:  there weren't many bags of gold coins found in Europe (occasionally, yes, as Bowers tells us and I will print later on) but mostly gold coins from SDBs or individuals.  A few here...a few dozen here...maybe a big stash at 1 bank which consolidated dozens or hundreds of SDBs.....etc.

Guys like Paul Wittlin made a living just making contacts at various European banks that held these coins.

Edited December 5, 2022 by GoldFinger1969

[GoldFinger1969]

On 12/3/2022 at 11:23 AM, RWB said:

The coin vs bullion proportion was intended to meet any public demand for legal tender coin while avoiding the cost of coinage for at least part of the backing.

I never thought of that....if someone DID want gold, you couldn't cut a 400 oz. bar !! 

Did you ever come across any numbers which indicated how much in Gold Certificates were exchanged for actual gold coin in any year ?  And I wonder if it increased during a year like 1907, with the Knickerbocker Trust panic.

Edited December 6, 2022 by GoldFinger1969

[RWB]

Treasury reports show that nearly all extant gold - coin and bar - was in Treasury vaults. There was also demand for increased supplies of gold certs. This suggests to me that exchange of certificates for physical gold was a small proportion of total stock and not subject to draw-down. In 1933-34 the "gold" returned to banks was overwhelmingly in certificates, not physical coin. (This is in the book -- someplace.)

[GoldFinger1969]

On 12/6/2022 at 12:19 PM, RWB said:

Treasury reports show that nearly all extant gold - coin and bar - was in Treasury vaults. There was also demand for increased supplies of gold certs. This suggests to me that exchange of certificates for physical gold was a small proportion of total stock and not subject to draw-down. In 1933-34 the "gold" returned to banks was overwhelmingly in certificates, not physical coin. (This is in the book -- someplace.)

Yes, I remember it.  I thought that was interesting as there wasn't really that much in gold coins to turn in or collect.  Or maybe some people had some -- upper classes -- and just didn't turn it in. 

The thing is, gold coins I could see being saved -- gold certificates, less so.  You figure a GC is going to be spent because it's paper whereas a gold coin is the actual gold that you want that is represented by a piece of paper.

Same thing with holding gold coins and bullion instead of a gold ETF today.

Edited December 6, 2022 by GoldFinger1969

[Henri Charriere]

On 12/6/2022 at 2:01 PM, GoldFinger1969 said:

.... The thing is, gold coins I could see being saved -- gold certificates, less so....

Maybe, maybe, but some of them were downright gorgeous what with the intricate engravings and bright orange colors.  I no longer remember if they were available in "horse-blanket" versions, but those would have been positively astounding!

[Henri Charriere]

[Breaking News...

Two, count 'em, 2 - 1907 High Wire acts, both NGC MS-65, pop 145/32, NGC price guide: 44K, current price: 47K @ HA.]  

[GoldFinger1969]

On 12/6/2022 at 2:31 PM, Quintus Arrius said:

[Breaking News... Two, count 'em, 2 - 1907 High Wire acts, both NGC MS-65, pop 145/32, NGC price guide: 44K, current price: 47K @ HA.]  

Thanks, I'll comment on them later over in the Saint-Gaudens Price Thread.  

 

[RWB]

I think "fin rim" is meant.....

[Henri Charriere]

On 12/6/2022 at 3:35 PM, RWB said:

I think "fin rim" is meant.....

Yes, of course!  I am just being obstinate!    

[GoldFinger1969]

Registry & Type Collectors:  We've talked here and in other threads about how many people collect Saint coinage.  

I looked at the total number of grading events at PCGS and NGC for the 1908 No Motto.  Interestingly, the premium in high grades really collapses right at the MS-65 level.  If you include that grade, you have a maximum of 65,000 coins available in that grade or higher (it's less, accounting for double-counts/re-submissions). 

Exclude the MS-65 level, and you have about 18,000 coins in MS-66 and higher, which does NOT totally cover the estimated 25,000 Type/Partial-Registry player estimate I saw a few years ago.  The premium here accelerates in a way that the jump from MS-64 to MS-65 does not.  It appears that demand for the Registry and Type collectors is satiated by that 65 grade which helps zero-in on the number of collectors.

So those guestimates I had for registry, type, and investor participants in Saint coinage look like they are in the ballpark.

Edited December 9, 2022 by GoldFinger1969

[GoldFinger1969]

Interesting article on ASG from CoinWeek from last year on his assistants helping him with coins and also his winged "Victory" sculptor.  Covered much more in-depth in RWB's Saints DE book and also his RoAC series, but I picked up a few things on his assistants:

https://coinweek.com/us-coins/it-took-a-team-of-sculptors-to-produce-the-saint-gaudens-double-eagle/ 

[GoldFinger1969]

LIBERTY vs. SAINT PL DESIGNATION:  No threads on PL or Liberty Head DEs, so I'll ask it here.  

I see that some Liberty Double Eagles have the PL designation (at least from PCGS).  I'm wondering if the "cleaner" fields of the Liberty DEs allowed the PL appearance to take hold.  No Saints have the PL designation, AFAIK.

Can't be dies or the striking press.  Could it be the reduced area in the Saint fields because of the rays and/or olive branch ?

Edited December 16, 2022 by GoldFinger1969

[zadok]

On 12/16/2022 at 2:09 AM, GoldFinger1969 said:

LIBERTY vs. SAINT PL DESIGNATION:  No threads on PL or Liberty Head DEs, so I'll ask it here.  

I see that some Liberty Double Eagles have the PL designation (at least from PCGS).  I'm wondering if the "cleaner" fields of the Liberty DEs allowed the PL appearance to take hold.  No Saints have the PL designation, AFAIK.

Can't be dies or the striking press.  Could it be the reduced area in the Saint fields because of the rays and/or olive branch ?

...fair question...prob a couple other contributing factors...just to clarify, u r referring to MS coins?....

[GoldFinger1969]

On 12/16/2022 at 3:16 AM, zadok said:

...fair question...prob a couple other contributing factors...just to clarify, u r referring to MS coins?....

Yeah, I guess the ones I saw were at least MS-63.  I don't recall ever seeing a PL designation until the other day.  Or maybe I just never paid attention.

Larger mirror-potential in the larger clear fields of a Liberty DE than a Saint DE from my perspective but maybe there's something else.

[zadok]

On 12/16/2022 at 9:41 AM, GoldFinger1969 said:

Yeah, I guess the ones I saw were at least MS-63.  I don't recall ever seeing a PL designation until the other day.  Or maybe I just never paid attention.

Larger mirror-potential in the larger clear fields of a Liberty DE than a Saint DE from my perspective but maybe there's something else.

...obviously the surface of the dies n surfaces of the planchets come into play...who knows maybe one of the mint workers sprayed in some ky jelly or wd-40 before the striking?....

[RWB]

On 12/16/2022 at 2:09 AM, GoldFinger1969 said:

LIBERTY vs. SAINT PL DESIGNATION:  No threads on PL or Liberty Head DEs, so I'll ask it here.  

I see that some Liberty Double Eagles have the PL designation (at least from PCGS).  I'm wondering if the "cleaner" fields of the Liberty DEs allowed the PL appearance to take hold.  No Saints have the PL designation, AFAIK.

Can't be dies or the striking press.  Could it be the reduced area in the Saint fields because of the rays and/or olive branch ?

LIberty head gold was struck from basined dies - a uniform radius of curvature. This permitted easy abrasive removal of clashes and other surface defects with consistent results.

Saint-Guadens and Pratt designs did not have basined fields and could not be uniformly polished during repair. Same for Peace dollars. Further, the 20th century approach under Engraver Morgan was local die repair rather than simple field grinding on an emery wheel. (The unusually PL fields seen on quarters, halves and dollars, and E, DE from the latter half of the 19th century are also a byproduct of the use of powdered limestone for die repair - it cut less aggressively than emery.)

Edited December 16, 2022 by RWB

[GoldFinger1969]

On 12/16/2022 at 3:32 PM, RWB said:

LIberty head gold was struck from basined dies - a uniform radius of curvature. This permitted easy abrasive removal of clashes and other surface defects with consistent results.

Basined dies...as opposed to flat or flatter dies on Saints ?  Is that it ?

Why would "easy abrasive removal" of clashes and other defects be an issue -- the (Liberty DE) coins get struck, that's it, right ?  They're not worrying about clashes or surface defects unless the dies are flawed, right ?

I'm very weak in my understanding of the striking process, so excuse my ignorance here.

 

[RWB]

Basined dies have a uniform radius of curvature which allows use of a single "basining disc" to be use to smooth the field AND uniformly maintain relative relief detail.

The dies on SG and Pratt gold were also curved, but it was not a uniform radius. Thus, smoother was necessary at specific places so that the relief would not be ruined.

Abrasives were used to remove or lessen clash mark damage, superficial cracks and light spalling. If a die had a uniform radius of curvature (convex) this could be done with a single tool used by someone with limited experience.If the die had an irregular basin, it required the work of an expert to do it correctly. (This was the reason for changing from 8 TF to 7TF on 1878 Morgan dollars.)

[FlyingAl]

On 12/16/2022 at 7:14 PM, RWB said:

Basined dies have a uniform radius of curvature which allows use of a single "basining disc" to be use to smooth the field AND uniformly maintain relative relief detail.

The dies on SG and Pratt gold were also curved, but it was not a uniform radius. Thus, smoother was necessary at specific places so that the relief would not be ruined.

Abrasives were used to remove or lessen clash mark damage, superficial cracks and light spalling. If a die had a uniform radius of curvature (convex) this could be done with a single tool used by someone with limited experience.If the die had an irregular basin, it required the work of an expert to do it correctly. (This was the reason for changing from 8 TF to 7TF on 1878 Morgan dollars.)

Was this corrected as time went on like the other basined dies? If so you'd think a PL or two example would exist. 

[Henri Charriere]

On 12/16/2022 at 8:52 PM, GoldFinger1969 said:

Basined dies...as opposed to flat or flatter dies on Saints ?  Is that it ?

Why would "easy abrasive removal" of clashes and other defects be an issue -- the (Liberty DE) coins get struck, that's it, right ?  They're not worrying about clashes or surface defects unless the dies are flawed, right ?

I'm very weak in my understanding of the striking process, so excuse my ignorance here.

 

Don't look at me!  I'm still trying to figure out the Great One's reference to "Water displacement formula # 40," and its significance to PL.  Now I am onto "basined" dies.  The WD-40 I have no problem with (ignorance is bliss) but "basined" feels like RWB is pulling my leg with a term so daring in its application that to disagree with it would be to risk exposing one's ignorance on a nationwide forum and, THAT, I am not prepared to do.  

[GoldFinger1969]

On 12/16/2022 at 9:42 PM, Quintus Arrius said:

Don't look at me!  I'm still trying to figure out the Great One's reference to "Water displacement formula # 40," and its significance to PL. 

I actually think I understood RWB's 2nd explanation.  I'm not sure this was covered in the DE book but it might be in FMTM1 or the upcoming FMTM2.

I have to check out YouTube and look for some classic and modern coin presses in action with close-up shots of the various mechanisms.  It's tough to comprehend from READING about them...you need to SEE it. 

[GoldFinger1969]

1908 Wells Fargo No-Motto MS-66 OGH CAC:  I have it in the Wells Fargo Hoard Thread, too, but this coin is so lustrous and with great eye-appeal I felt a 75-page thread about Saints had to have the pics, too. 

Maybe it's the lighting -- because the 1908 NM's are supposed to lack in strike and luster and overall eye appeal unless you get up to MS-67/68 level -- but this is one of the BEST-LOOKING Saints I can recall, next to the MCMVII UHRs and the 1908-S MS-67 CAC Norweb Saint.

I'm not surprised that CAC and JA signed off on this Wells Fargo coin, a group they've got a low sticker rate on.

 

Edited December 17, 2022 by GoldFinger1969

[RWB]

On 12/16/2022 at 9:24 PM, FlyingAl said:

Was this corrected as time went on like the other basined dies? If so you'd think a PL or two example would exist. 

Charles Barber changed the Eagle and Double Eagle basins in mid-1908 and then made additional adjustments until about 1915. On the varieties of DE, I've never found evidence of complete resurfacing although there is extensive clash removal on some. Some of these die repairs are rather sloppy in my opinion. Objection by Augusta S-G and the artist's brothers and others stopped any attempt to move to a uniform basin suitable for mirror proofs.

The Pratt coins were uniformly disliked at the Mint Bureau and no one seems to have bothered them very much.

New cents and nickels, and then new silver of 1916 all began with uneven basins and were gradually converted to uniform curvature. The nickel was changed in 1913 and 1914 and 1916, the cent in 1911, 1912, 1914 and later. Changes to new subsidiary silver were more gradual with the dime changed in 1917, 1918 and later, quarter in 1917 (twice), 1924-5, half in 1917, 1933, 1934, 1935 and later.

Technical reasons were primary. A uniform basin was much easier to maintain and distributed stress more uniformly throughout the die face. The results were more consistent impressions and longer die life.

[GoldFinger1969]

What is "clash removal" ? 

As I understand it, when the coin is being struck....the obverse and reverse dies come together.....would a "clash" be each imprinting on to the other's side ?  If so, is that a function of the dies or the striking mechanism ?  Maybe the tonnage is too high ?

 

Edited December 17, 2022 by GoldFinger1969

[zadok]

On 12/17/2022 at 10:16 AM, GoldFinger1969 said:

What is "clash removal" ? 

As I understand it, when the coin is being struck....the obverse and reverse dies come together.....would a "clash" be each imprinting on to the other's side ?  If so, is that a function of the dies or the striking mechanism ?  Maybe the tonnage is too high ?

 

...yes to question number 1...number 2, no...its the absence of a planchet in between....