For those of you who love CAC...

[Hard Times]

I think some people wanted CAC to be perfect and get angry when they find out it is not. Then when their coins don't sticker they get even angrier at John/CAC. Then they come here to complain about CAC but get their lunch eaten every time.......

 

So is getting their lunch eaten for complaining about CAC what it's all about? Crush any disagreement? Sure seems that way glad to hear someone state it.

 

Sounds like it don't it?

 

Best, HT

 

Come on. There has been plenty of disagreement within this thread and it has been almost entirely polite and civil. For example, I think Brandon and I have disagreed as much as or more than anyone and we've gotten along fine.

 

I don't recall a single poster suggesting that disagreements be silenced. That's not the same thing as saying that someone gets their "lunch eaten" when they complain- at least not as far as I understand the expression.

 

We agree to disagree on that. And I think you are generally talking semantics here as I think because although posters don't specifically state

 

'be silent thou detractor of thine CAC',

 

they sure don't want to hear any disagreement with the marketing concept and rally around JA the good ole boy doing his duty for the collector (and raking in millions for himself and his investors while he does it). JMHO.

 

Best, HT

[MarkFeld]

Mark, two right grades - like 65 with a green bean and 67 with a green bean? Where does that fit? In the realm that you are mistaken?

 

Best, HT

 

Without seeing the coin in person, it's hard for me to imagine that both the (MS65 and MS67) grades could be "right".

 

I guess this applies here too.

 

 

You sound as if you misunderstood my post, though I don't know how. Please re-read, unless it would bother you that my guess is that CAC got it "wrong" at least once with that coin.

 

[MarkFeld]

BTW, If I'm so wrong, why is it folks can post positive comments about CAC, about "JOHN" get all giddy when he tells them they have nice coins...... but let one person say something negative and all the "John" fans come in and try and silence them in their own way. And yes Mr. Feld you are one of the main ones IMO.

 

Sounds like you think when someone disagrees with a point of view and states why, you interpret it as trying to silence the other person "in their own way". I strongly disagree, but have no desire (and will make no effort) to silence you.

[coinman_23885]

It's too bad you aren't a grader. We could all second guess you as it's the easy thing to do

 

mark

 

Snap!

Post of the day!

 

Why does this post somehow remind me of this?:

 

[Afterword]

"BTW, If I'm so wrong, why is it folks can post positive comments about CAC, about "JOHN" get all giddy when he tells them they have nice coins...... but let one person say something negative and all the "John" fans come in and try and silence them in their own way."

 

 

 

 

 

It works both ways. Many times "folks" cannot "post positive comments about CAC" without someone pointing out CAC's faults, which falls within Hard Times' and your rather broad definitions of trying to silence someone.

 

 

 

 

 

[dragon]

<<< Y'all are asking for a level of precision that is simply impossible. I think a great many people don't really understand what "subjective" means. >>>

 

 

 

I for one certainly know the meaning of the word "subjective" as it relates to numismatics. It's the very word that has kept the 3rd party grading services in business regrading crackouts and flipping a coin to decide whether a modern is a 69 or a 70 for the past 15 years or so.

 

"Subjectivity" is also the word that completely absolves said grading services from any culpability/responsibility/liability/accountability/etc because grading is of course "subjective."

[coinman_23885]

<<< Y'all are asking for a level of precision that is simply impossible. I think a great many people don't really understand what "subjective" means. >>>

 

 

 

I for one certainly know the meaning of the word "subjective" as it relates to numismatics. It's the very word that has kept the 3rd party grading services in business regrading crackouts and flipping a coin to decide whether a modern is a 69 or a 70 for the past 15 years or so.

 

"Subjectivity" is also the word that completely absolves said grading services from any culpability/responsibility/liability/accountability/etc because grading is of course "subjective."

 

You're right, and with the clear cut examples, some of them just retroactively amend the guarantee or resort to grade inflation to prevent paying out. The longer I stay in this hobby, the more convinced I am that greed (and I am NOT saying CAC) will cause this hobby to collapse.

[Afterword]

<<< Y'all are asking for a level of precision that is simply impossible. I think a great many people don't really understand what "subjective" means. >>>

 

 

 

I for one certainly know the meaning of the word "subjective" as it relates to numismatics. It's the very word that has kept the 3rd party grading services in business regrading crackouts and flipping a coin to decide whether a modern is a 69 or a 70 for the past 15 years or so.

 

"Subjectivity" is also the word that completely absolves said grading services from any culpability/responsibility/liability/accountability/etc because grading is of course "subjective."

 

 

 

Are you saying that TPGs are responsible for numismatic's subjectivity or that subjectivity is responsible for the TPGs lack of "culpability/responsibility/liability/accountability/etc"?

 

Also, who do you blame for the "crackouts and flipping"? The TPGs or collectors and dealers?

[MJ]

I've said this many times here and ATS......I'm not that concerned with the grade on the holder. I'm comfortable enough with my grading skills. What I'm less comfortable with is my skills on detecting deception. Coins that have been monkeyed with by techniques I'm not familiar with. That's the greatest benefit I take away from CAC. John has looked at more coins then anybody the last decade and who better to detect any new or old techniques to alter the appearance of the coin.

 

mark

[Walkerfan]

I've said this many times here and ATS......I'm not that concerned with the grade on the holder. I'm comfortable enough with my grading skills. What I'm less comfortable with is my skills on detecting deception. Coins that have been monkeyed with by techniques I'm not familiar with. That's the greatest benefit I take away from CAC. John has looked at more coins then anybody the last decade and who better to detect any new or old techniques to alter the appearance of the coin.

 

mark

 

I really agree with you on this point, Mark.

 

This is where CAC truly shines and they are a valuable resource.

 

[dragon]

<<< Are you saying that TPGs are responsible for numismatic's subjectivity or that subjectivity is responsible for the TPGs lack of "culpability/responsibility/liability/accountability/etc"?

 

Also, who do you blame for the "crackouts and flipping"? The TPGs or collectors and dealers? >>>

 

 

 

 

My statement was made in jest (well....maybe), and I'm not claiming that any party is responsible, nor do I blame any party for their actions.

 

What I will say however, is that IMO being a coin collector was a lot more fun and relaxing back in the days before the advent of slabs, stickers on slabs, registry sets, mega auctions companies, super express grading fees, multi millionaire coin dealers, grading "moderns", etc.

[stman]

One of the big things that bother me with the CAC defenders is (And BTW I'm not against the company) when incorrect information is posted like a green bean means the coin is PQ when it has been stated so many times it means solid for the grade according to CAC. Never do I see anybody correct them. I have a few times and no doubt if I was wrong "Folks" would jump me quick. That quote is for the other poster that quoted me saying folks. Please don't go all semantics on me and start twisting things. I'm not going to debate the meaning of a word, or phrase like PQ.

 

Much other misinformation as well. Like what a gold bean means. I strongly feel folks (there is that word again) still continue to post what they think everything means or what they want it to mean. Again, I never see all the pro CAC people correct them. Why is that? I can only assume because it helps the value of their coins so they aren't going to make a stink about it.

 

I have no doubt if it was something that might hurt the appeal/value in general of a coin they would be in there very quickly. That's just a few things. I have had and still have some CAC stickered coins. BTW, how ya doing Mr.Feld long time. And just in case I am not going to go find these kind of statements I've referred to. If you can't trust my word so be it.

[coinman1794]

I'm kind of wondering why this is a thread about CAC. Seems to me this should be directed at PCGS.

 

jom

 

I somewhat agree this is not a CAC threat, though on the converse, I will note that you could line up 10 dealers and get 10 different grades on any given rainbow Morgan, so I'm not sure it's a PCGS thread either.

 

I have sent many a coin to CAC, often at the request of customers. CAC does not grade coins. They give an up or down vote on whether they like it as it is graded, which is biased by the opinion already rendered by the NGC/PCGS. It is very common to see a green sticker coin upgrade and resticker, as CAC is extremely reluctant to issue gold stickers on undergraded coins.

 

 

[MarkFeld]

Mark, two right grades - like 65 with a green bean and 67 with a green bean? Where does that fit? In the realm that you are mistaken?

 

Best, HT

 

Without seeing the coin in person, it's hard for me to imagine that both the (MS65 and MS67) grades could be "right".

 

I guess this applies here too.

 

 

You sound as if you misunderstood my post, though I don't know how. Please re-read, unless it would bother you that my guess is that CAC got it "wrong" at least once with that coin.

 

I'll reply to the above post a second tme because I was dumbfounded by it. I said I couldn't imagine CAC being right both times (when the coin was graded 65 and then 67 and received a green sticker in each instance) and I was shown a circle the wagons picture. It appears that you either misread my post or had your mind made up that I would support CAC, so ignored it, when I failed to do so.

 

[Mr.Mcknowitall]

One of the big things that bother me with the CAC defenders is (And BTW I'm not against the company) when incorrect information is posted like a green bean means the coin is PQ when it has been stated so many times it means solid for the grade according to CAC. Never do I see anybody correct them. I have a few times and no doubt if I was wrong "Folks" would jump me quick. That quote is for the other poster that quoted me saying folks. Please don't go all semantics on me and start twisting things. I'm not going to debate the meaning of a word, or phrase like PQ.

 

Much other misinformation as well. Like what a gold bean means. I strongly feel folks (there is that word again) still continue to post what they think everything means or what they want it to mean. Again, I never see all the pro CAC people correct them. Why is that? I can only assume because it helps the value of their coins so they aren't going to make a stink about it.

 

I have no doubt if it was something that might hurt the appeal/value in general of a coin they would be in there very quickly. That's just a few things. I have had and still have some CAC stickered coins. BTW, how ya doing Mr.Feld long time. And just in case I am not going to go find these kind of statements I've referred to. If you can't trust my word so be it.

 

You haven't changed much.

[stman]

I guess I put the circle the wagons picture up as the first thing you said there is without seeing the coin in person. Always have to cover yourself. Maybe not a good reason for the picture but what I had handy. To the other guy was I suppose to change? I know who you are but I forget who you were? Heh

 

Also Mr.Feld I asked how you are and you didn't answer me. Should I be upset or..... dumbfounded?

[Hard Times]

I've said this many times here and ATS......I'm not that concerned with the grade on the holder. I'm comfortable enough with my grading skills. What I'm less comfortable with is my skills on detecting deception. Coins that have been monkeyed with by techniques I'm not familiar with. That's the greatest benefit I take away from CAC. John has looked at more coins then anybody the last decade and who better to detect any new or old techniques to alter the appearance of the coin.

 

mark

 

And to post a positive about CAC, I totally agree, they don't want to market human assisted coins. This is the whole concept of understanding surfaces of coins and what they are........ This is one crucial aspect that is as Mark said, perhaps the greatest benefit of getting their opinion.

 

Best, HT

[Afterword]

One of the big things that bother me with the CAC defenders is (And BTW I'm not against the company) when incorrect information is posted like a green bean means the coin is PQ when it has been stated so many times it means solid for the grade according to CAC. Never do I see anybody correct them. I have a few times and no doubt if I was wrong "Folks" would jump me quick. That quote is for the other poster that quoted me saying folks. Please don't go all semantics on me and start twisting things. I'm not going to debate the meaning of a word, or phrase like PQ.

 

Much other misinformation as well. Like what a gold bean means. I strongly feel folks (there is that word again) still continue to post what they think everything means or what they want it to mean. Again, I never see all the pro CAC people correct them. Why is that? I can only assume because it helps the value of their coins so they aren't going to make a stink about it.

 

I have no doubt if it was something that might hurt the appeal/value in general of a coin they would be in there very quickly. That's just a few things. I have had and still have some CAC stickered coins. BTW, how ya doing Mr.Feld long time. And just in case I am not going to go find these kind of statements I've referred to. If you can't trust my word so be it.

 

 

 

 

To clarify: I was not intentionally highlighting your use of the word "folks" in my reply to your post. I was simply using your statement "folks can post positive comments about CAC" in a sentence to make a point, and replaced "can" with cannot to the same end. I removed the quotation marks from the latter to make it clear that it was not a part of your original statement.

 

I am neither a promoter nor a detractor of CAC.

 

[stman]

One of the big things that bother me with the CAC defenders is (And BTW I'm not against the company) when incorrect information is posted like a green bean means the coin is PQ when it has been stated so many times it means solid for the grade according to CAC. Never do I see anybody correct them. I have a few times and no doubt if I was wrong "Folks" would jump me quick. That quote is for the other poster that quoted me saying folks. Please don't go all semantics on me and start twisting things. I'm not going to debate the meaning of a word, or phrase like PQ.

 

Much other misinformation as well. Like what a gold bean means. I strongly feel folks (there is that word again) still continue to post what they think everything means or what they want it to mean. Again, I never see all the pro CAC people correct them. Why is that? I can only assume because it helps the value of their coins so they aren't going to make a stink about it.

 

I have no doubt if it was something that might hurt the appeal/value in general of a coin they would be in there very quickly. That's just a few things. I have had and still have some CAC stickered coins. BTW, how ya doing Mr.Feld long time. And just in case I am not going to go find these kind of statements I've referred to. If you can't trust my word so be it.

 

 

 

 

To clarify: I was not intentionally highlighting your use of the word "folks" in my reply to your post. I was simply using your statement "folks can post positive comments about CAC" in a sentence to make a point, and replaced "can" with cannot to the same end. I removed the quotation marks from the latter to make it clear that it was not a part of your original statement.

 

I am neither a promoter nor a detractor of CAC.

 

Thanks. I am more of a detractor of the people that promote CAC and try and make up their own rules of what they stand for. And some of them are high profile people and others just pass it on without no correction. Honestly, The market is heavy with CAC and I'd be a fool to ignore it.

[Hard Times]

Seriously, if you want to see why some collectors are frustrated with those that strongly tout CAC, all one has to do is read a market report from you know who. Words like 'bottom feeders' (that be me), 'dreck' (my coins in fact), 'PCGS and CAC only' and 'non CAC lower end coins' pervade the prose. It makes it awful hard to have the love affair with CAC that apparently some have when you read this kind O'Stuff. So I agree with the view that 'I am more of a detractor of the people that promote CAC and try and make up their own rules of what they stand for' which was rightly said.

 

Best, HT

[MJ]

Seriously, if you want to see why some collectors are frustrated with those that strongly tout CAC, all one has to do is read a market report from you know who. Words like 'bottom feeders' (that be me), 'dreck' (my coins in fact), 'PCGS and CAC only' and 'non CAC lower end coins' pervade the prose. It makes it awful hard to have the love affair with CAC that apparently some have when you read this kind O'Stuff. So I agree with the view that 'I am more of a detractor of the people that promote CAC and try and make up their own rules of what they stand for' which was rightly said.

 

Best, HT

 

I've seen the coins you have posted here. They are not dreck and I doubt she would feel the same way. Dreck knows no price point.

 

mark

[Afterword]

One of the big things that bother me with the CAC defenders is (And BTW I'm not against the company) when incorrect information is posted like a green bean means the coin is PQ when it has been stated so many times it means solid for the grade according to CAC. Never do I see anybody correct them. I have a few times and no doubt if I was wrong "Folks" would jump me quick. That quote is for the other poster that quoted me saying folks. Please don't go all semantics on me and start twisting things. I'm not going to debate the meaning of a word, or phrase like PQ.

 

Much other misinformation as well. Like what a gold bean means. I strongly feel folks (there is that word again) still continue to post what they think everything means or what they want it to mean. Again, I never see all the pro CAC people correct them. Why is that? I can only assume because it helps the value of their coins so they aren't going to make a stink about it.

 

I have no doubt if it was something that might hurt the appeal/value in general of a coin they would be in there very quickly. That's just a few things. I have had and still have some CAC stickered coins. BTW, how ya doing Mr.Feld long time. And just in case I am not going to go find these kind of statements I've referred to. If you can't trust my word so be it.

 

 

 

 

To clarify: I was not intentionally highlighting your use of the word "folks" in my reply to your post. I was simply using your statement "folks can post positive comments about CAC" in a sentence to make a point, and replaced "can" with cannot to the same end. I removed the quotation marks from the latter to make it clear that it was not a part of your original statement.

 

I am neither a promoter nor a detractor of CAC.

 

Thanks. I am more of a detractor of the people that promote CAC and try and make up their own rules of what they stand for. And some of them are high profile people and others just pass it on without no correction. Honestly, The market is heavy with CAC and I'd be a fool to ignore it.

 

 

 

I do not see many CAC stickered coins in the venues I peruse, so CAC is of little concern to me. I hear a lot about CAC on this message board, but mostly from hardcore promoters or detractors. It is difficult to know what to believe when dealing with these extremes.

 

Fortunately, to me, none of it is relevant.

[MJ]

One of the big things that bother me with the CAC defenders is (And BTW I'm not against the company) when incorrect information is posted like a green bean means the coin is PQ when it has been stated so many times it means solid for the grade according to CAC. Never do I see anybody correct them. I have a few times and no doubt if I was wrong "Folks" would jump me quick. That quote is for the other poster that quoted me saying folks. Please don't go all semantics on me and start twisting things. I'm not going to debate the meaning of a word, or phrase like PQ.

 

Much other misinformation as well. Like what a gold bean means. I strongly feel folks (there is that word again) still continue to post what they think everything means or what they want it to mean. Again, I never see all the pro CAC people correct them. Why is that? I can only assume because it helps the value of their coins so they aren't going to make a stink about it.

 

I have no doubt if it was something that might hurt the appeal/value in general of a coin they would be in there very quickly. That's just a few things. I have had and still have some CAC stickered coins. BTW, how ya doing Mr.Feld long time. And just in case I am not going to go find these kind of statements I've referred to. If you can't trust my word so be it.

 

 

 

 

 

 

To clarify: I was not intentionally highlighting your use of the word "folks" in my reply to your post. I was simply using your statement "folks can post positive comments about CAC" in a sentence to make a point, and replaced "can" with cannot to the same end. I removed the quotation marks from the latter to make it clear that it was not a part of your original statement.

 

I am neither a promoter nor a detractor of CAC.

 

Thanks. I am more of a detractor of the people that promote CAC and try and make up their own rules of what they stand for. And some of them are high profile people and others just pass it on without no correction. Honestly, The market is heavy with CAC and I'd be a fool to ignore it.

 

FWIW I've often pointed out that a CAC green sticker meant solid for the grade or a A or B coin. Ive often copied directly from the CAC site. People don't seem to care and I got tired of posting on it. People believe what they want. Most people have seemed to taken sides one way or another with no middle ground. It's a shame. For the record like Bill I have never submitted to CAC. I will someday. Most of the coins I've purchased the last 7 years or so already came with a CAC sticker. I would like to think these were the same quality of coins I was buying previously

 

mark

[PocketArt]

Well, from an outsider looking in, I place TPG's as providing a benchmark for grade with any particular coin. Having a special service such as this CAC, to ensure that professional TPG's have their grades in line with another professional opinion is what I see as an unnecessary step. Is this not an additional cost burden that may inflate the value of a coin?

 

That cost burden should reside with my determination and judgement. Good, bad, or, ugly....No? My bad, or, good.

 

I don't like the idea of a service saying- this coin is accurately graded, when a service is already providing that service. This I see is an opinion of an opinion and I can certainly provide that- appears to be some marketing ploy?

 

What is CAC, a financial adviser for market grading a particular coin?

 

Just curious...

 

Rich

 

 

 

 

 

[mumu]

I think CAC would be of infinite more value if they blindly graded the coins and then compared them to whats on the slab. There are 10 other things they need to do too but That's how long term income gets spread out. Add a feature here, add a feature there. Keep the coins coming back.

[MJ]

I think CAC would be of infinite more value if they blindly graded the coins and then compared them to whats on the slab. There are 10 other things they need to do too but That's how long term income gets spread out. Add a feature here, add a feature there. Keep the coins coming back.

 

It is probably hardest going first like the TPGers do and as Bill correctly pointed out. It's easier for CAC going second as Bill pointed out. You know what's the easiest position of them all? Going third like all Monday morning quarterbacks do. They get the luxury of sitting back and judge as they see fit. If they tables were turned It would indeed be interesting.

 

Anyways I'm convinced there is no perfect system and it's quite alright.

 

mark

[MarkFeld]

I guess I put the circle the wagons picture up as the first thing you said there is without seeing the coin in person. Always have to cover yourself. Maybe not a good reason for the picture but what I had handy. To the other guy was I suppose to change? I know who you are but I forget who you were? Heh

 

Also Mr.Feld I asked how you are and you didn't answer me. Should I be upset or..... dumbfounded?

 

I haven't seen the coin in person and am open to the possibility that I could feel differently if I did. That's why it was the first thing I said. Interesting that you choose to focus on that and ignore the part about my not being able to imagine that CAC got it right both times. Maybe not a good reason for the pot shot picture at all.

And please feel free to be upset or dumbfounded if you wish. As I said in another post, I won't try to silence someone just because we disagree.

 

[coinman_23885]

Seriously, if you want to see why some collectors are frustrated with those that strongly tout CAC, all one has to do is read a market report from you know who. Words like 'bottom feeders' (that be me), 'dreck' (my coins in fact), 'PCGS and CAC only' and 'non CAC lower end coins' pervade the prose. It makes it awful hard to have the love affair with CAC that apparently some have when you read this kind O'Stuff. So I agree with the view that 'I am more of a detractor of the people that promote CAC and try and make up their own rules of what they stand for' which was rightly said.

 

Best, HT

 

In fairness, Legend does in fact buy and sell NGC certified coins. I bought a CACed-NGC coin from them that I love; they bought it that way from Heritage. They offered it to me at a nice price too. Of course, this was all before NGC gave them the boot as an authorized dealer (for some of its rhetoric involving NGC), so there may be NGC animus now.

[stman]

Boy I'll say something....... have you forgotten how to smile, Feld. So serious everything has to be in order. I want to tell you where to stick it but I won't right now. Man, what a grumpy ol' codger.

 

I guess I thought we used to get along. That's what I get for thinking. Going home now!

 

But still, I didn't answer the way you wanted me to so you get upset. Not good for the heart feld.

[coinman_23885]

Boy I'll say something....... have you forgotten how to smile, Feld. So serious everything has to be in order. I want to tell you where to stick it but I won't right now. Man, what a grumpy ol' codger.

 

I guess I thought we used to get along. That's what I get for thinking. Going home now!

 

But still, I didn't answer the way you wanted me to so you get upset. Not good for the heart feld.

 

You sound like someone who is off of his medicines. Please don't clutter the thread with attacks and other word vomit. Thanks.