For those of you who love CAC...

[brg5658]

I hope this reassures you all of the utility of your little green stickers.

 

February 2016

 

 

June 2016

 

[BROADSTRUCK]

Wow both in pronged holders too...

 

Now find it in the older full silicone gasket MS64 holder before it was maxed out by both services.

 

Guess we'll now never know what it really grades...

 

Oh wait who am I kidding as it surely has another shot to MS68+

[brg5658]

Just for fun, I also see that both are still included in the CAC look-up!

 

 

[3keepSECRET]

why would the cert# on the 67+ revert back to lower than the 65+ Weird, cause PCGS was not issuing 256#'s when the 30th Anny green label was/is available so it's like it was a re-holder. I understand that these coins are the same coin but are they really???

[Nutmeg Coin]

So was the 65+ coin cracked out to get the 67+? Or did PCGS see it as way undergraded and then charge the re-consideration upgrade fee? This shows the exceptional few coins to which the usual rules may not apply due to unusual toning or eye appeal (to some).

[brg5658]

why would the cert# on the 67+ revert back to lower than the 65+ Weird, cause PCGS was not issuing 256#'s when the 30th Anny green label was/is available so it's like it was a re-holder. I understand that these coins are the same coin but are they really???

 

The cert #'s on PCGS graded coins don't tell you anything about when a coin was graded in general. Never have. And, yes, 100%, they are obviously the same coin...

[brg5658]

So was the 65+ coin cracked out to get the 67+? Or did PCGS see it as way undergraded and then charge the re-consideration upgrade fee? This shows the exceptional few coins to which the usual rules may not apply due to unusual toning or eye appeal (to some).

 

Most assuredly a crack-out -- otherwise, they would have removed the "crack-upgrade" coin from their database as an MS65+ (which they didn't).

 

Both coins are also still active in the PCGS cert lookup site...

 

 

 

 

[nk1nk]

I'm looking forward to this thread hitting 20 pages by the end of the week. ?

[RWB]

So....the sticker is holding the slab together, is that it?

[jom]

I'm kind of wondering why this is a thread about CAC. Seems to me this should be directed at PCGS.

 

jom

[Six Mile Rick]

It surely is a little proof that we get shorted on GOLD CAC stickers!! Same coin both grades -- GREEN stickers

[Raisethis2]

I was thinking the same. The coin was most certainly cracked out of it's MS 65+ holder with CAC and (maybe after a bath) went through the grading process a second time garnering the MS 67+. Thereafter, shipped to CAC and re-beaned at the new grade.

 

Seems the party who wiffed might have been PCGS who probably gave a common date coin the ole "3 second grading" and FORGOT TO LOOK AT THE FREAKING COIN!!!

 

 

It seems proper that CAC would just green bean the coin the first time around (rather than gold bean it) since gold beans are rarely considered and the criteria CAC uses to gold bean submissions is somewhat proprietary.

 

 

[MJ]

I'm kind of wondering why this is a thread about CAC. Seems to me this should be directed at PCGS.

 

jom

 

You really need not wonder.

 

mark

[MJ]

I was thinking the same. The coin was most certainly cracked out of it's MS 65+ holder with CAC and (maybe after a bath) went through the grading process a second time garnering the MS 67+. Thereafter, shipped to CAC and re-beaned at the new grade.

 

Seems the party who wiffed might have been PCGS who probably gave a common date coin the ole "3 second grading" and FORGOT TO LOOK AT THE FREAKING COIN!!!

 

 

It seems proper that CAC would just green bean the coin the first time around (rather than gold bean it) since gold beans are rarely considered and the criteria CAC uses to gold bean submissions is somewhat proprietary.

 

 

Yah, that's how I looked it as well. Doesn't sell newspapers or lead to long threads though.

 

mark

[MJ]

And here is the thread from ATS where the orgin of this post was born. If you can't get enough of this stuff here please feel free to follow along there.

 

I can't get enough so I'm clicking here

 

mark

[Hard Times]

Gotta say, I like PCGS, NGC, and CAC, alot. All great companies that have saved numismatics from the sharks out there. But when I see things like this, it is very disheartening. I refer to the first line in my signature below......

 

 

 

Best, HT

[brg5658]

And here is the thread from ATS where the orgin of this post was born. If you can't get enough of this stuff here please feel free to follow along there.

 

I can't get enough so I'm clicking here

 

mark

 

Thanks for linking MJ. I forgot to mention it was posted here in response to the thread ATS. I posted it here given that this board isn't run like the Russian or North Korean media services...and comments can actually be forthright instead of scrubbed.

 

[Nutmeg Coin]

Maybe we can keep chiming in on this thread and beat it to death...

 

How serious the hits were that would make 65+ a stretch....The sharp, seasoned, market-savvy though somewhat jaded investors and collectors who buy at GC; and the easily convinced HA buyers who bid stronger on the monster toned PCGS/CAC +2 point approved beauties. The consignor who will have to wait a while for their well-deserved check.

[coinman_23885]

TPG inconsistency, grade inflation, and retroactive encroachments to TPG guarantees make me very nervous about the long term health and stability of the coin market.

[Hard Times]

TPG inconsistency, grade inflation, and retroactive encroachments to TPG guarantees make me very nervous about the long term health and stability of the coin market.

 

Well two things. One needs to know how to grade and price a coin, and as PT Barnum says...... So I think the coin market long term will be stable, but one has to understand the caveats.

 

Best, HT

[MJ]

And here is the thread from ATS where the orgin of this post was born. If you can't get enough of this stuff here please feel free to follow along there.

 

I can't get enough so I'm clicking here

 

mark

 

Thanks for linking MJ. I forgot to mention it was posted here in response to the thread ATS. I posted it here given that this board isn't run like the Russian or North Korean media services...and comments can actually be forthright instead of scrubbed.

 

You are welcome Brandon. You seem to do just fine ATS as an active poster. Your analogies leave a lot to be desired FWIW. Wow, just wow

 

mark

[MJ]

Gotta say, I like PCGS, NGC, and CAC, alot. All great companies that have saved numismatics from the sharks out there. But when I see things like this, it is very disheartening. I refer to the first line in my signature below......

 

 

 

Best, HT

 

I feel you HT.............

 

mark

[nk1nk]

And here is the thread from ATS where the orgin of this post was born. If you can't get enough of this stuff here please feel free to follow along there.

 

I can't get enough so I'm clicking here

 

mark

 

Thanks for linking MJ. I forgot to mention it was posted here in response to the thread ATS. I posted it here given that this board isn't run like the Russian or North Korean media services...and comments can actually be forthright instead of scrubbed.

 

You are welcome Brandon. You seem to do just fine ATS as an active poster. Your analogies leave a lot to be desired FWIW. Wow, just wow

 

mark

 

Actually his analogy is pretty accurate. I rarely post my opinion ATS because Kim Jong Willis is such a strict dictator when it comes to opinions. Toe the line or you'll be making big rocks into little rocks. I think the list of banned people speaks for itself and for such petty reasons. they are vital assets to the coin collecting community and I'm glad they are able to speak freely here. Not to derail this post by any means though. Please carry on with the CAC fire fight. And please nobody mention DCarr in this thread.

[Raisethis2]

The fact that PCGS has to be viewed as having messed up in this case is exactly the kind of thing that gets Moderator Don's heart racing. I agree that the discussion here can be frank and adult without censor interference.

 

When it's all said and done maybe we'll learn something.

 

 

 

[MarkFeld]

I was thinking the same. The coin was most certainly cracked out of it's MS 65+ holder with CAC and (maybe after a bath) went through the grading process a second time garnering the MS 67+. Thereafter, shipped to CAC and re-beaned at the new grade.

 

Seems the party who wiffed might have been PCGS who probably gave a common date coin the ole "3 second grading" and FORGOT TO LOOK AT THE FREAKING COIN!!!

 

 

It seems proper that CAC would just green bean the coin the first time around (rather than gold bean it) since gold beans are rarely considered and the criteria CAC uses to gold bean submissions is somewhat proprietary.

 

 

If nothing was done to the coin after it was graded 65+, the assessments by both PCGS and CAC were quite inconsistent. And it doesn't seem "proper" that CAC would decline to award a gold sticker to a 65 coin - they ignore plus grades - which they subsequently determined was a solid-for-the-grade 67.

 

It is my understanding that gold stickers are awarded to coins, which in the opinion of CAC are under graded by at least one grade and "lock upgrades". A coin with a 2 point grade swing should certainly qualify.

 

The above notwithstanding, I think that CAC does a great job in the very large majority of cases.

 

 

[jom]

I can't get enough so I'm clicking here

 

I rarely post my opinion ATS because Kim Jong Willis is such a strict dictator when it comes to opinions.

 

 

jom

[Nutmeg Coin]

For every upgrade like this that are caught, how many don't get caught because they are different company holders? It makes you wonder about the thieves and those trying to cover their tracks in certain transactions. Crack the coin out and re-slab then find a covert or unlikely to be found sales option.

 

Personally I find it more interesting looking through coins for sale and opportunities. In this group most of the coins were over-priced. The Pan-Pac graded 65+: http://i.imgur.com/lBlTX2p.jpg

[MarkFeld]

For every upgrade like this that are caught, how many don't get caught because they are different company holders? It makes you wonder about the thieves and those trying to cover their tracks in certain transactions. Crack the coin out and re-slab then find a covert or unlikely to be found sales option.

 

Personally I find it more interesting looking through coins for sale and opportunities. In this group most of the coins were over-priced. The Pan-Pac graded 65+: http://i.imgur.com/lBlTX2p.jpg

 

Transactions of the type you mentioned don't meet the definition of thievery and I think your remark was out of line.

[Hard Times]

I was thinking the same. The coin was most certainly cracked out of it's MS 65+ holder with CAC and (maybe after a bath) went through the grading process a second time garnering the MS 67+. Thereafter, shipped to CAC and re-beaned at the new grade.

 

Seems the party who wiffed might have been PCGS who probably gave a common date coin the ole "3 second grading" and FORGOT TO LOOK AT THE FREAKING COIN!!!

 

 

It seems proper that CAC would just green bean the coin the first time around (rather than gold bean it) since gold beans are rarely considered and the criteria CAC uses to gold bean submissions is somewhat proprietary.

 

 

 

The above notwithstanding, I think that CAC does a great job in the very large majority of cases.

 

 

That is about all anyone can ask for, they aren't perfect, nor are the TPG's, but for the latter what is most troubling is that apparently their standards fluctuate over time. Hence as Broadie says, got to save one own arse by learning how to grade and value a coin, or er, ah, token......

 

Has CAC standards fluctuated over time? Any evidence of this? Any way to examine this?

 

Best, HT

[jom]

Overall the TPG's do a fine job...so does CAC. Just because there are occasional screw-up...such as this one doesn't mean they both don't do a good job.

 

In fact, I think people get the wrong idea here on forums since the vast majority of threads pertaining to TPG grading are negative. I mean, really, who wants to read a thread of TPGs getting it right all of the time? It's the screw ups that are the fun part!

 

That all being said I hope this wasn't another one of those instances where the TPG was being "conservative". Being conservative isn't helping anyone...especially the first seller of this Morgan dollar. Hopefully, the TPGs are concentrating on being CONSISTANT and getting right not just being some "tough" grader.

 

As to the CAC issue I'm leaning toward Professor Feld's assessment here: there really isn't much of an excuse for not giving the gold bean the first time around...I mean, really,...TWO MS grading points? C'mon...

 

jom