For those of you who love CAC...

[Hard Times]

I've followed most of this thread. I agree with some of it, but find it fascinating that people go nuts about a singe statistical outlier in a system of subjective variables.

 

In actuality, it would be very odd indeed if this sort of thing didn't happen from time to time.

 

It almost seems like some people believe that coins actually have a concrete, definitive grade. When a paid professional's opinion departs from this ABSOLUTE GRADE, it's time to get the pitchforks out. It doesn't work that way. Grades are nothing more than a limited, shorthand appraisal of a coin that is subject to the whims and foibles of the human condition. Even very good graders have percentage of bad calls. Same with umpires. Same with surgeons. Same with pilots and every other human endeavor. Not every Picasso was a masterpiece.

 

You are of course completely right. But, the reason it DOES matter is because the number and bean or not sets the value of the coin, which can be very different depending on those two variables. This is why we get our feathers ruffled over these things.

 

Best, HT

[MarkFeld]

NO, time and time again you have been told John is not perfect. Please stop it! I said you cant grade from a photo and there are more important things than strike. HA, I am not a dealer, so NO business model.

 

Who told Bill that John is not perfect? I don't recall any thread here or there that explicitly used those words and directed them to Bill.

 

One of the issues that has come up in discussions with some of the 'informed numismatists' who are detractors as Mr. Feld would call them. In economic history, when one entity controls a market, it leads to collapse or quality degradation. This happens over and over and over. Hence, this blind faith in CAC that allows them to control the market, without any other competitors, is probably not a healthy, long-term scenario for the collector.

 

Independent of the market domination, as much as I like getting a CAC opinion on my coins, I am not sure that we wouldn't be better off with out them - the informed numismatist would benefit more by his/her accrued knowledge. With CAC around, which is pretty good at picking out the better coins, it makes it easy on those who don't learn to grade and understand surfaces. Alot of the advantage of having knowledge is removed.

 

Best, HT

 

Bill Jones has implied, if not stated in a number of posts, over a long period of time that people have said or believe JA is perfect. I don't recall anyone having done so. I and others have called Bill on that, yet he continues with it, without backing up his assertions.

 

Here - JA is a great numismatist and grader, but is far from perfect. I hope that is clear.

[dragon]

 

Actually his analogy is pretty accurate. I rarely post my opinion ATS because Kim Jong Willis is such a strict dictator when it comes to opinions. Toe the line or you'll be making big rocks into little rocks. I think the list of banned people speaks for itself and for such petty reasons. they are vital assets to the coin collecting community and I'm glad they are able to speak freely here. Not to derail this post by any means though. Please carry on with the CAC fire fight. And please nobody mention DCarr in this thread.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Rather humorous.......but don't you feel you're being a bit hard on Kim Jong-un?

[coinman_23885]

 

Actually his analogy is pretty accurate. I rarely post my opinion ATS because Kim Jong Willis is such a strict dictator when it comes to opinions. Toe the line or you'll be making big rocks into little rocks. I think the list of banned people speaks for itself and for such petty reasons. they are vital assets to the coin collecting community and I'm glad they are able to speak freely here. Not to derail this post by any means though. Please carry on with the CAC fire fight. And please nobody mention DCarr in this thread.

 

Can you imagine if JA started reviewing DCarr pieces in the ANACS token holders? We would have a 1000 page thread and probably in record time.

[nk1nk]

 

Actually his analogy is pretty accurate. I rarely post my opinion ATS because Kim Jong Willis is such a strict dictator when it comes to opinions. Toe the line or you'll be making big rocks into little rocks. I think the list of banned people speaks for itself and for such petty reasons. they are vital assets to the coin collecting community and I'm glad they are able to speak freely here. Not to derail this post by any means though. Please carry on with the CAC fire fight. And please nobody mention DCarr in this thread.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Rather humorous.......but don't you feel you're being a bit hard on Kim Jong-un?

 

Lmao!! On second thought I think you're right. My apologies to Kim Jong-Un!

 

Nick

[mommam17]

Please, you can't be serious........

 

[MJ]

I've followed most of this thread. I agree with some of it, but find it fascinating that people go nuts about a singe statistical outlier in a system of subjective variables.

 

In actuality, it would be very odd indeed if this sort of thing didn't happen from time to time.

 

It almost seems like some people believe that coins actually have a concrete, definitive grade. When a paid professional's opinion departs from this ABSOLUTE GRADE, it's time to get the pitchforks out. It doesn't work that way. Grades are nothing more than a limited, shorthand appraisal of a coin that is subject to the whims and foibles of the human condition. Even very good graders have percentage of bad calls. Same with umpires. Same with surgeons. Same with pilots and every other human endeavor. Not every Picasso was a masterpiece.

 

Well said

 

mark

[MJ]

I'm surprised how difficult it is for some folks to admit that CAC makes occasional mistakes.

 

No question they make an occasional mistake. I'm not sure I know anyone who thinks otherwise

 

mark

 

Edited for a typo

[dragon]

I've followed most of this thread. I agree with some of it, but find it fascinating that people go nuts about a singe statistical outlier in a system of subjective variables.

 

In actuality, it would be very odd indeed if this sort of thing didn't happen from time to time.

 

It almost seems like some people believe that coins actually have a concrete, definitive grade. When a paid professional's opinion departs from this ABSOLUTE GRADE, it's time to get the pitchforks out. It doesn't work that way. Grades are nothing more than a limited, shorthand appraisal of a coin that is subject to the whims and foibles of the human condition. Even very good graders have percentage of bad calls. Same with umpires. Same with surgeons. Same with pilots and every other human endeavor. Not every Picasso was a masterpiece.

 

 

 

 

 

 

From time to time?? In reality this sort of thing happens waaaaay more often than from "time to time", it's actually a rather commonplace occurrence which anyone can see if they're even half paying attention. In fact, some dealers have made a living from this "single statistical outlier" concept better known as "the crackout game." I'm also confident that pretty much every collector here with a few years under his/her belt is well aware of the musical chairs grading game, the grading standards themselves 'evolving' and all of the other practices that keep the revenue wheels continually spinning in the universe of professional 3rd party grading.....it's really not a well kept secret :-)

 

IMO this thread makes light of this particular occurrence primarily due to the uniqueness of the toning pattern making it an irrefutable example of wild grade swings in relatively short periods of time by supposed professional graders and the corresponding wild swings in price realized that go along.

[Afterword]

Collectors and dealers could not always agree on the grades/prices of coins before the advent of TPGs. Now that we have TPGs, collectors do not always agree with the grades/prices on the slabs.

 

Other than for those who to some degree accept the grades/prices on slabs as an impartial evaluation - has anything really changed?

[BillJones]

NO, time and time again you have been told John is not perfect. Please stop it! I said you cant grade from a photo and there are more important things than strike. HA, I am not a dealer, so NO business model.

 

Who told Bill that John is not perfect? I don't recall any thread here or there that explicitly used those words and directed them to Bill.

 

One of the issues that has come up in discussions with some of the 'informed numismatists' who are detractors as Mr. Feld would call them. In economic history, when one entity controls a market, it leads to collapse or quality degradation. This happens over and over and over. Hence, this blind faith in CAC that allows them to control the market, without any other competitors, is probably not a healthy, long-term scenario for the collector.

 

Independent of the market domination, as much as I like getting a CAC opinion on my coins, I am not sure that we wouldn't be better off with out them - the informed numismatist would benefit more by his/her accrued knowledge. With CAC around, which is pretty good at picking out the better coins, it makes it easy on those who don't learn to grade and understand surfaces. Alot of the advantage of having knowledge is removed.

 

Best, HT

 

Bill Jones has implied, if not stated in a number of posts, over a long period of time that people have said or believe JA is perfect. I don't recall anyone having done so. I and others have called Bill on that, yet he continues with it, without backing up his assertions.

 

Here - JA is a great numismatist and grader, but is far from perfect. I hope that is clear.

 

You see it time and time again ATS. "Were the Pogue coins reviewed by CAC? Do you ask a dealer if a coin has had a CAC review when you inquire about buying an item? Do you think this coin will get CAC approval."

 

Gee, would any of these guys care to think for themselves now and then? Is that too much to ask?

 

A well known Maine dealer's friends had a bunch of tee shirts printed up with "abb" on printed on them. "Abb" stands for "Approved by Babe." It's a satire about how some people have to have their hand held before they will make a purchase.

[MarkFeld]

NO, time and time again you have been told John is not perfect. Please stop it! I said you cant grade from a photo and there are more important things than strike. HA, I am not a dealer, so NO business model.

 

Who told Bill that John is not perfect? I don't recall any thread here or there that explicitly used those words and directed them to Bill.

 

One of the issues that has come up in discussions with some of the 'informed numismatists' who are detractors as Mr. Feld would call them. In economic history, when one entity controls a market, it leads to collapse or quality degradation. This happens over and over and over. Hence, this blind faith in CAC that allows them to control the market, without any other competitors, is probably not a healthy, long-term scenario for the collector.

 

Independent of the market domination, as much as I like getting a CAC opinion on my coins, I am not sure that we wouldn't be better off with out them - the informed numismatist would benefit more by his/her accrued knowledge. With CAC around, which is pretty good at picking out the better coins, it makes it easy on those who don't learn to grade and understand surfaces. Alot of the advantage of having knowledge is removed.

 

Best, HT

 

Bill Jones has implied, if not stated in a number of posts, over a long period of time that people have said or believe JA is perfect. I don't recall anyone having done so. I and others have called Bill on that, yet he continues with it, without backing up his assertions.

 

Here - JA is a great numismatist and grader, but is far from perfect. I hope that is clear.

 

You see it time and time again ATS. "Were the Pogue coins reviewed by CAC? Do you ask a dealer if a coin has had a CAC review when you inquire about buying an item? Do you think this coin will get CAC approval."

 

Gee, would any of these guys care to think for themselves now and then? Is that too much to ask?

 

A well known Maine dealer's friends had a bunch of tee shirts printed up with "abb" on printed on them. "Abb" stands for "Approved by Babe." It's a satire about how some people have to have their hand held before they will make a purchase. [/quot

[MarkFeld]

NO, time and time again you have been told John is not perfect. Please stop it! I said you cant grade from a photo and there are more important things than strike. HA, I am not a dealer, so NO business model.

 

Who told Bill that John is not perfect? I don't recall any thread here or there that explicitly used those words and directed them to Bill.

 

One of the issues that has come up in discussions with some of the 'informed numismatists' who are detractors as Mr. Feld would call them. In economic history, when one entity controls a market, it leads to collapse or quality degradation. This happens over and over and over. Hence, this blind faith in CAC that allows them to control the market, without any other competitors, is probably not a healthy, long-term scenario for the collector.

 

Independent of the market domination, as much as I like getting a CAC opinion on my coins, I am not sure that we wouldn't be better off with out them - the informed numismatist would benefit more by his/her accrued knowledge. With CAC around, which is pretty good at picking out the better coins, it makes it easy on those who don't learn to grade and understand surfaces. Alot of the advantage of having knowledge is removed.

 

Best, HT

 

Bill Jones has implied, if not stated in a number of posts, over a long period of time that people have said or believe JA is perfect. I don't recall anyone having done so. I and others have called Bill on that, yet he continues with it, without backing up his assertions.

 

Here - JA is a great numismatist and grader, but is far from perfect. I hope that is clear.

 

You see it time and time again ATS. "Were the Pogue coins reviewed by CAC? Do you ask a dealer if a coin has had a CAC review when you inquire about buying an item? Do you think this coin will get CAC approval."

 

Gee, would any of these guys care to think for themselves now and then? Is that too much to ask?

 

A well known Maine dealer's friends had a bunch of tee shirts printed up with "abb" on printed on them. "Abb" stands for "Approved by Babe." It's a satire about how some people have to have their hand held before they will make a purchase.

 

That is a far cry from people saying or believing that JA/CAC is perfect.

[mommam17]

Bill- When you bought your $50 Pan Pac didn't you get CAC's opinion on it? If so, why is it OK for you to use CAC, but not others? Whether you believe it or not John is 1 of the best around and most people know that.

[jom]

NO, time and time again you have been told John is not perfect. Please stop it! I said you cant grade from a photo and there are more important things than strike. HA, I am not a dealer, so NO business model.

 

Who told Bill that John is not perfect? I don't recall any thread here or there that explicitly used those words and directed them to Bill.

 

One of the issues that has come up in discussions with some of the 'informed numismatists' who are detractors as Mr. Feld would call them. In economic history, when one entity controls a market, it leads to collapse or quality degradation. This happens over and over and over. Hence, this blind faith in CAC that allows them to control the market, without any other competitors, is probably not a healthy, long-term scenario for the collector.

 

Independent of the market domination, as much as I like getting a CAC opinion on my coins, I am not sure that we wouldn't be better off with out them - the informed numismatist would benefit more by his/her accrued knowledge. With CAC around, which is pretty good at picking out the better coins, it makes it easy on those who don't learn to grade and understand surfaces. Alot of the advantage of having knowledge is removed.

 

Best, HT

 

Bill Jones has implied, if not stated in a number of posts, over a long period of time that people have said or believe JA is perfect. I don't recall anyone having done so. I and others have called Bill on that, yet he continues with it, without backing up his assertions.

 

Here - JA is a great numismatist and grader, but is far from perfect. I hope that is clear.

 

You see it time and time again ATS. "Were the Pogue coins reviewed by CAC? Do you ask a dealer if a coin has had a CAC review when you inquire about buying an item? Do you think this coin will get CAC approval."

 

Gee, would any of these guys care to think for themselves now and then? Is that too much to ask?

 

A well known Maine dealer's friends had a bunch of tee shirts printed up with "abb" on printed on them. "Abb" stands for "Approved by Babe." It's a satire about how some people have to have their hand held before they will make a purchase.

 

That is a far cry from people saying or believing that JA/CAC is perfect.

 

I agree but I can appreciate what Bill is saying though. If what Bill is saying is true, then I would suspect that there are many that will be HOPING that JA is perfect.

 

But that doesn't translate to anyone saying he IS perfect necessarily.

 

jom

[mommam17]

I think some people wanted CAC to be perfect and get angry when they find out it is not. Then when their coins don't sticker they get even angrier at John/CAC. Then they come here to complain about CAC but get their lunch eaten every time.......

[Hard Times]

NO, time and time again you have been told John is not perfect. Please stop it! I said you cant grade from a photo and there are more important things than strike. HA, I am not a dealer, so NO business model.

 

Who told Bill that John is not perfect? I don't recall any thread here or there that explicitly used those words and directed them to Bill.

 

One of the issues that has come up in discussions with some of the 'informed numismatists' who are detractors as Mr. Feld would call them. In economic history, when one entity controls a market, it leads to collapse or quality degradation. This happens over and over and over. Hence, this blind faith in CAC that allows them to control the market, without any other competitors, is probably not a healthy, long-term scenario for the collector.

 

Independent of the market domination, as much as I like getting a CAC opinion on my coins, I am not sure that we wouldn't be better off with out them - the informed numismatist would benefit more by his/her accrued knowledge. With CAC around, which is pretty good at picking out the better coins, it makes it easy on those who don't learn to grade and understand surfaces. Alot of the advantage of having knowledge is removed.

 

Best, HT

 

Bill Jones has implied, if not stated in a number of posts, over a long period of time that people have said or believe JA is perfect. I don't recall anyone having done so. I and others have called Bill on that, yet he continues with it, without backing up his assertions.

 

Here - JA is a great numismatist and grader, but is far from perfect. I hope that is clear.

 

You see it time and time again ATS. "Were the Pogue coins reviewed by CAC? Do you ask a dealer if a coin has had a CAC review when you inquire about buying an item? Do you think this coin will get CAC approval."

 

Gee, would any of these guys care to think for themselves now and then? Is that too much to ask?

 

A well known Maine dealer's friends had a bunch of tee shirts printed up with "abb" on printed on them. "Abb" stands for "Approved by Babe." It's a satire about how some people have to have their hand held before they will make a purchase.

 

That is a far cry from people saying or believing that JA/CAC is perfect.

 

I agree but I can appreciate what Bill is saying though. If what Bill is saying is true, then I would suspect that there are many that will be HOPING that JA is perfect.

 

But that doesn't translate to anyone saying he IS perfect necessarily.

 

jom

 

And after all these insinuations about Bill claiming others claim JA is perfect I went back and looked at some of those posts. Bill does not flat out say that others say JA is perfect, what he is saying is more along the longs of what jom says above, that others 'expect' or 'hope' CAC is perfect and are shocked when they are not.

 

HST, and I will say it again as I have in the past, given the expectations, top graders grading the grades of other top graders, and with the claims of CAC and what their mission is, I also more or less expected them to be perfect so it was a rude awakening to discover they are not.

 

Best, HT

[BillJones]

Bill- When you bought your $50 Pan Pac didn't you get CAC's opinion on it? If so, why is it OK for you to use CAC, but not others? Whether you believe it or not John is 1 of the best around and most people know that.

 

That is absolutely true. I am not saying that the people should not consider CAC's opinions.

 

What I am saying is that it is not nearly as foolproof as its advocates claim. They goof more than they should. What they do is actually quite easy. They have three grades: yes, no and YES!!!

 

Given that narrow range, their batting average should higher than it is. I could do that very easily, and did do it when I was a dealer. I was an exacting buyer, and I seldom lost money on a coin.

 

As JA himself, you called him "a great numismatist." I beg to differ. I have never read a book, an article or even a message on a board that he has written. Q. David Bowers, RWB and Eric P. Newman are great numismatists. JA is obviously a marketing genius and is viewed as a great coin grader. That falls short of the "great numismatist" tag in my opinion until he can give more back to the hobby.

[Hard Times]

I think some people wanted CAC to be perfect and get angry when they find out it is not. Then when their coins don't sticker they get even angrier at John/CAC. Then they come here to complain about CAC but get their lunch eaten every time.......

 

I don't know that angry is the correct term, surprised, shocked, disappointed? I don't know anyone who gets 'angrier at John/CAC' when their coins don't sticker. We have seen alot of threads asking why they don't, or why are they inconsistent when they are. Problem is, only JA can tell one that as it is his judgement.

 

What do you mean by getting their lunch eaten, be more specific. I eat lunch almost every day, for example, I don't think someone else is eating my lunch for me.

 

Best, HT

 

 

[MJ]

Given that narrow range, their batting average should higher than it is..

 

What's their batting average?

 

mark

[Hard Times]

Given that narrow range, their batting average should higher than it is..

 

What's their batting average?

 

mark

 

That is a good question and I know you asked Bill but I will give my dimes worth. I think it is 80-90%, which is not too bad as long as one does not expect perfection which I now know not to. MJ what do you think their BA is?

 

Best, HT

[BillJones]

I don't think that 80 to 90% is all that good. Given what they do, it should be higher. If it's okay for CAC to be off 10 to 20 percent of the time, then NGC and PCGS should get some more slack. There are "unforced" CAC errors when they put a sticker on a coin that has obviously been net graded for problems.

 

They are doing a much harder job, which includes authentication, (which is of great importance these days), problem coin detection and grading. They also need to know something about how some varieties and date and mint combinations tend to be struck. All of this requires a lot of knowledge to do it right.

 

And to set the record straight I don't think that NGC and PCGS should be off 10 to 20 percent of time.

 

If you want set batting averages the thing to do is go though some major auction house boxes. I've done it mainly for the coins that interest me these day, which has me looking at fewer coins, because my U.S. collections are close to complete. I've seen many CAC approved coins that just left me shaking my head. "Why? When it's so easy just to say "No."

[MarkFeld]

Given that narrow range, their batting average should higher than it is..

 

What's their batting average?

 

mark

 

That is a good question and I know you asked Bill but I will give my dimes worth. I think it is 80-90%, which is not too bad as long as one does not expect perfection which I now know not to. MJ what do you think their BA is?

 

Best, HT

 

What do you mean by "batting average"? How would one go about determining their "batting average"? And who would do it?

[Hard Times]

Given that narrow range, their batting average should higher than it is..

 

What's their batting average?

 

mark

 

That is a good question and I know you asked Bill but I will give my dimes worth. I think it is 80-90%, which is not too bad as long as one does not expect perfection which I now know not to. MJ what do you think their BA is?

 

Best, HT

 

What do you mean by "batting average"? How would one go about determining their "batting average"? And who would do it?

 

I think MJ means how often they get it 'right'. That of course is completely subjective and there is no 'right' answer. And anyone could do it.....

 

Best, HT

[mommam17]

When you want someone's business to fail, you are angry.....

 

[Afterword]

If NGC and PCGS grade coins by different standards, does CAC sticker NGC graded coins using NGC's grading standards and PCGS graded coins using PCGS's grading standards, or does CAC sticker coins using a different standard altogether?

 

More importantly, do they sticker coins using your standards?

[robec1347]

I've seen many CAC approved coins that just left me shaking my head. "Why? When it's so easy just to say "No."

And you're not shaking your head at the grading company's grade, only the sticker? Sounds like someone is a little jealous because they aren't getting paid for their opinion.

[MJ]

Given that narrow range, their batting average should higher than it is..

 

What's their batting average?

 

mark

 

That is a good question and I know you asked Bill but I will give my dimes worth. I think it is 80-90%, which is not too bad as long as one does not expect perfection which I now know not to. MJ what do you think their BA is?

 

Best, HT

 

What do you mean by "batting average"? How would one go about determining their "batting average"? And who would do it?

 

I don't know. Bill made the spurious statement that their batting average should be higher knowing there was no way to either refute or confirm. I was just asking what he thought it was.

 

To answer HT's question I think it's more in the 98% range from my POV. Honestly for all that bashing CAC takes on this board I've only seen a few instances were I thought they may of missed one. They were indeed outliers. I've rifled through hundreds of boxes of auction coins and I think 98% would be a fair number. Of course I have no way of knowing what he doesn't sticker except for the sour grape threads I read from time to time.

 

Mark, what percentage of coins that pass through John's hands do you think he gets right?

 

mark

 

Edited for a typo

 

 

[MarkFeld]

If NGC and PCGS grade coins by different standards, does CAC sticker NGC graded coins using NGC's grading standards and PCGS graded coins using PCGS's grading standards, or does CAC sticker coins using a different standard altogether?

 

More importantly, do they sticker coins using your standards?

 

The latter- their standards. Otherwise they would probably have different bids for PCGS vs. NGC coins.

[Afterword]

That would be my guess, as well.

 

Collectors judge CAC's performance using their standards. That is three different standards playing against one another - the TPG's standards, CAC's standards and the collector's standards.

 

Interesting dynamic, but there is the monetary value of coins to add to the equation, and I suspect it has the strongest influence on which standard most prefer.