For those of you who love CAC...

[Hard Times]

Overall the TPG's do a fine job...so does CAC. Just because there are occasional screw-up...such as this one doesn't mean they both don't do a good job.

 

In fact, I think people get the wrong idea here on forums since the vast majority of threads pertaining to TPG grading are negative. I mean, really, who wants to read a thread of TPGs getting it right all of the time? It's the screw ups that are the fun part!

 

That all being said I hope this wasn't another one of those instances where the TPG was being "conservative". Being conservative isn't helping anyone...especially the first seller of this Morgan dollar. Hopefully, the TPGs are concentrating on being CONSISTANT and getting right not just being some "tough" grader.

 

As to the CAC issue I'm leaning toward Professor Feld's assessment here: there really isn't much of an excuse for not giving the gold bean the first time around...I mean, really,...TWO MS grading points? C'mon...

 

jom

 

They don't just hand out gold beans like candy, I will bet they make every effort they can to NOT dish them out. So when they do, it really means something. Hence, that makes the 65+ to 67+ and green baby green both times something to be aware of and proceed with caution...... I only have one gold bean, and the grade is probably at least 3 higher than on the TPG slab on a good day, without doubt 2 higher at a blink.

 

Best, HT

[rrantique]

Overall the TPG's do a fine job...so does CAC. Just because there are occasional screw-up...such as this one doesn't mean they both don't do a good job.

 

In fact, I think people get the wrong idea here on forums since the vast majority of threads pertaining to TPG grading are negative. I mean, really, who wants to read a thread of TPGs getting it right all of the time? It's the screw ups that are the fun part!

 

That all being said I hope this wasn't another one of those instances where the TPG was being "conservative". Being conservative isn't helping anyone...especially the first seller of this Morgan dollar. Hopefully, the TPGs are concentrating on being CONSISTANT and getting right not just being some "tough" grader.

 

As to the CAC issue I'm leaning toward Professor Feld's assessment here: there really isn't much of an excuse for not giving the gold bean the first time around...I mean, really,...TWO MS grading points? C'mon...

 

jom

 

+1

[jom]

Overall the TPG's do a fine job...so does CAC. Just because there are occasional screw-up...such as this one doesn't mean they both don't do a good job.

 

In fact, I think people get the wrong idea here on forums since the vast majority of threads pertaining to TPG grading are negative. I mean, really, who wants to read a thread of TPGs getting it right all of the time? It's the screw ups that are the fun part!

 

That all being said I hope this wasn't another one of those instances where the TPG was being "conservative". Being conservative isn't helping anyone...especially the first seller of this Morgan dollar. Hopefully, the TPGs are concentrating on being CONSISTANT and getting right not just being some "tough" grader.

 

As to the CAC issue I'm leaning toward Professor Feld's assessment here: there really isn't much of an excuse for not giving the gold bean the first time around...I mean, really,...TWO MS grading points? C'mon...

 

jom

 

They don't just hand out gold beans like candy, I will bet they make every effort they can to NOT dish them out. So when they do, it really means something. Hence, that makes the 65+ to 67+ and green baby green both times something to be aware of and proceed with caution...... I only have one gold bean, and the grade is probably at least 3 higher than on the TPG slab on a good day, without doubt 2 higher at a blink.

 

Best, HT

 

I don't know...it was a Morgan for crying out loud. How hard can it be? Well...OK...maybe because it WAS a Morgan and a common one to boot which gave them pause.

 

Then again, if the job of a gold bean is to pick out "obvious" upgrades (something JA told me once) I'm not sure why they'd skip over giving this a gold.

 

jom

[MJ]

Overall the TPG's do a fine job...so does CAC. Just because there are occasional screw-up...such as this one doesn't mean they both don't do a good job.

 

In fact, I think people get the wrong idea here on forums since the vast majority of threads pertaining to TPG grading are negative. I mean, really, who wants to read a thread of TPGs getting it right all of the time? It's the screw ups that are the fun part!

 

That all being said I hope this wasn't another one of those instances where the TPG was being "conservative". Being conservative isn't helping anyone...especially the first seller of this Morgan dollar. Hopefully, the TPGs are concentrating on being CONSISTANT and getting right not just being some "tough" grader.

 

As to the CAC issue I'm leaning toward Professor Feld's assessment here: there really isn't much of an excuse for not giving the gold bean the first time around...I mean, really,...TWO MS grading points? C'mon...

 

jom

 

They don't just hand out gold beans like candy, I will bet they make every effort they can to NOT dish them out. So when they do, it really means something. Hence, that makes the 65+ to 67+ and green baby green both times something to be aware of and proceed with caution...... I only have one gold bean, and the grade is probably at least 3 higher than on the TPG slab on a good day, without doubt 2 higher at a blink.

 

Best, HT

 

I don't know...it was a Morgan for crying out loud. How hard can it be? Well...OK...maybe because it WAS a Morgan and a common one to boot which gave them pause.

 

Then again, if the job of a gold bean is to pick out "obvious" upgrades (something JA told me once) I'm not sure why they'd skip over giving this a gold.

 

jom

 

Knowing John he would remember if it passed through his hands both times. Knowing John he would have no problem saying he might have made a mistake.

 

mark

[Nutmeg Coin]

That would assume that JA has a photographic memory that is comprehensive enough to remember way too many coins, types, aesthetics that would boggle the mind of even the veriest brainiac. I seriously doubt he remembers coins in new holders months later...

[MJ]

That would assume that JA has a photographic memory that is comprehensive enough to remember way too many coins, types, aesthetics that would boggle the mind of even the veriest brainiac. I seriously doubt he remembers coins in new holders months later...

 

Assumptions are what keeps threads like this moving along. We don't even know if John has the coin both times or once. We don't know if the coin was exactly the same from the time it was a 65+ or a 67+.

 

John does have tremendous recall and nothing would surprise me. Most importantly John's the first to admit if he screws up. My experience is that it is infrequent. Out of the universe of coins that have passed through his hands there are very very few head scratchers that are cited. The ones that do tend to be a battle cry for the throw the baby out with the bath water brigade.

 

mark

[Hard Times]

One perspective out there is that CAC beans coins they wish to make a market of. Hence, maybe not surprising that a bean goes on the same coin in different grades? Apparently, they liked the Morgan when they saw in 65+, and they still liked it at 67+. That is all this really says - they would buy the coin in its present holder for their wholesale market. Now the open question is, would they have liked it at the average grade of 66+, or in an NGC holder?

 

Best, HT

[Nutmeg Coin]

In my experience they may stretch a little on super nice for grade coins, but not much extra; and they don't negotiate again after making an offer on the under $2000 coins that are "available". They generally offer under GS bid on coins they sticker.

[Mr.Mcknowitall]

A great for profit make a market business model. It is nothing more than that. It is not about advancing awareness of numismatics or scholarly pursuit in numismatics. It is not about superiority of Grade (that has been a brilliant psychological execution of the business plan, btw, right out of the Walmart book). It is a business model that is in the business of making a market, for profit.

[Coinbuf]

One perspective out there is that CAC beans coins they wish to make a market of. Hence, maybe not surprising that a bean goes on the same coin in different grades? Apparently, they liked the Morgan when they saw in 65+, and they still liked it at 67+. That is all this really says - they would buy the coin in its present holder for their wholesale market. Now the open question is, would they have liked it at the average grade of 66+, or in an NGC holder?

 

Best, HT

 

Winner, HT has hit it on the head with his reply. As to the two point swing in the PCGS grade I'm thinking that the second time through the submitter did a better job of knowing the best time/conditions to submit the coin. And as HT noted the green bean in this case was not so much a validation of the grade but rather a market decision.

[mumu]

I don't buy the whole make a market shenanigans. Are they willing to buy every single CAC coin at once? I mean sure I bet they would at $1 each, who wouldnt. But without a guaranteed buy and sell bid/ask price with reasonable pricing is it really a market?

 

Call me crazy but id label Occam's razor here that its really just a way to make $12 for a sticker/opinion.

[MarkFeld]

I don't buy the whole make a market shenanigans. Are they willing to buy every single CAC coin at once? I mean sure I bet they would at $1 each, who wouldnt. But without a guaranteed buy and sell bid/ask price with reasonable pricing is it really a market?

 

Call me crazy but id label Occam's razor here that its really just a way to make $12 for a sticker/opinion.

 

OK, you're crazy. Because they probably lose money on the snickering aspect. CAC's profit potential is based on the purchase and sale of CAC graded coins and the stickering is a vehicle by which to make that possible. I believe they have even gone on record and said as much.

[mumu]

I don't buy the whole make a market shenanigans. Are they willing to buy every single CAC coin at once? I mean sure I bet they would at $1 each, who wouldnt. But without a guaranteed buy and sell bid/ask price with reasonable pricing is it really a market?

 

Call me crazy but id label Occam's razor here that its really just a way to make $12 for a sticker/opinion.

 

OK, you're crazy. Because they probably lose money on the snickering aspect. CAC's profit potential is based on the purchase and sale of CAC graded coins and the stickering is a vehicle by which to make that possible. I believe they have even gone on record and said as much.

 

Well I can say that I can fly, doesn't make it so. I have a hard time believing they are buying and selling that many CAC coins. Unless its all happening at the dealer to dealer wholesale side of things. At which point doesn't affect your average collector. If that is the case, the CAC as whole should be deemed fairly useless to the average collector, especially with coins such as the op in light.

[coinman_23885]

I don't buy the whole make a market shenanigans. Are they willing to buy every single CAC coin at once? I mean sure I bet they would at $1 each, who wouldnt. But without a guaranteed buy and sell bid/ask price with reasonable pricing is it really a market?

 

Call me crazy but id label Occam's razor here that its really just a way to make $12 for a sticker/opinion.

 

OK, you're crazy. Because they probably lose money on the snickering aspect. CAC's profit potential is based on the purchase and sale of CAC graded coins and the stickering is a vehicle by which to make that possible. I believe they have even gone on record and said as much.

 

Well I can say that I can fly, doesn't make it so. I have a hard time believing they are buying and selling that many CAC coins. Unless its all happening at the dealer to dealer wholesale side of things. At which point doesn't affect your average collector. If that is the case, the CAC as whole should be deemed fairly useless to the average collector, especially with coins such as the op in light.

 

I don't think JA anticipated that CAC would be of use to most coins worth less than $1000-$1500. How are we defining "average collector?" CAC only sells to dealers so its money is largely from wholesale transactions.

[MJ]

CAC has purchased over 425 million in CAC coins. They would be happy to by yours as well.

 

mark

[jom]

I don't buy the whole make a market shenanigans. Are they willing to buy every single CAC coin at once? I mean sure I bet they would at $1 each, who wouldnt. But without a guaranteed buy and sell bid/ask price with reasonable pricing is it really a market?

 

Call me crazy but id label Occam's razor here that its really just a way to make $12 for a sticker/opinion.

 

OK, you're crazy. Because they probably lose money on the snickering aspect. CAC's profit potential is based on the purchase and sale of CAC graded coins and the stickering is a vehicle by which to make that possible. I believe they have even gone on record and said as much.

 

Probably? There is no question they are losing money on that part of their business. Just with the submissions I've done with them tells me that.

 

However, it's not really a "loss". It's more of a cost of doing business. Unfortunately, collectors seem to think this the main emphasis of the business which it clearly is not...they would have gone under a long time ago.

 

jom

[Mr.Mcknowitall]

I don't buy the whole make a market shenanigans. Are they willing to buy every single CAC coin at once? I mean sure I bet they would at $1 each, who wouldnt. But without a guaranteed buy and sell bid/ask price with reasonable pricing is it really a market?

 

Call me crazy but id label Occam's razor here that its really just a way to make $12 for a sticker/opinion.

 

OK, you're crazy. Because they probably lose money on the snickering aspect. CAC's profit potential is based on the purchase and sale of CAC graded coins and the stickering is a vehicle by which to make that possible. I believe they have even gone on record and said as much.

 

I don't know that they lose money on the snickering aspect. Snickering is usually reserved when a person makes excessive money from another person.

 

Then again, there is the Freudian transference thing when we comment on something.

[MarkFeld]

I don't buy the whole make a market shenanigans. Are they willing to buy every single CAC coin at once? I mean sure I bet they would at $1 each, who wouldnt. But without a guaranteed buy and sell bid/ask price with reasonable pricing is it really a market?

 

Call me crazy but id label Occam's razor here that its really just a way to make $12 for a sticker/opinion.

 

OK, you're crazy. Because they probably lose money on the snickering aspect. CAC's profit potential is based on the purchase and sale of CAC graded coins and the stickering is a vehicle by which to make that possible. I believe they have even gone on record and said as much.

 

I don't know that they lose money on the snickering aspect. Snickering is usually reserved when a person makes excessive money from another person.

 

Then again, there is the Freudian transference thing when we comment on something.

 

I will let my typo stand, but I sincerely appreciate your having made me aware of it.

[MarkFeld]

I don't buy the whole make a market shenanigans. Are they willing to buy every single CAC coin at once? I mean sure I bet they would at $1 each, who wouldnt. But without a guaranteed buy and sell bid/ask price with reasonable pricing is it really a market?

 

Call me crazy but id label Occam's razor here that its really just a way to make $12 for a sticker/opinion.

 

OK, you're crazy. Because they probably lose money on the snickering aspect. CAC's profit potential is based on the purchase and sale of CAC graded coins and the stickering is a vehicle by which to make that possible. I believe they have even gone on record and said as much.

 

Well I can say that I can fly, doesn't make it so. I have a hard time believing they are buying and selling that many CAC coins. Unless its all happening at the dealer to dealer wholesale side of things. At which point doesn't affect your average collector. If that is the case, the CAC as whole should be deemed fairly useless to the average collector, especially with coins such as the op in light.

 

You need not believe that they do that much business in CAC coins, but they typically spend millions of dollars per month. It's no secret, even if you were unaware of it.

 

And a great many "average collectors" are affected by it, whether they sell directly to CAC or not.

[mumu]

"Let’s look at the business model of the CAC using a different market. A stock broker buys a series of loan interests he wants to valuate based on a criteria held by those who are not happy with the current valuation services. Rather than look at everything, they start with a series of loan shares whose valuation are certified by certain services because they have a biased opinion against other services. They evaluate shares, put their seal of approval on it, bundle them and trade them amongst themselves create a new market that is currently not existent. Once these shares are traded in this closed market, their value is set then traded to the public. If this sounds like the derivatives market that crashed the economy in 2008, you would be correct. It also parallels the rise of the CAC and its creation of an artificial market."

 

writing credit and rest of article to:

 

http://coinsblog.ws/2012/04/john-albanese-sells-out-ordinary-collectors.html

[MJ]

That article was to written to complain that CAC doesn't sticker ICG nor ANACS products and moderns. I suggest everyone read the entire article to see the ax that is grinding.

 

 

mark

[mumu]

That article was to written to complain that CAC doesn't sticker ICG nor ANACS products and moderns. I suggest everyone read the entire article to see the ax that is grinding.

 

 

mark

 

It doesn't invalidate the excerpt just because the overall message is meant to champion the other TPGs. The other TPGs are just the ones that get hit the hardest by the exclusion. Which indirectly filters down to the collector as there would be no greater benefit than to evaluate a coin regardless of which TPG it is in(of the 4 still considered valid). CAC would have 10x more value on ANACS and ICG coins than it does on PCGS and NGC. And yes that is conceding that the situation in the OP is a rare exception afaik.

[MJ]

That article was to written to complain that CAC doesn't sticker ICG nor ANACS products and moderns. I suggest everyone read the entire article to see the ax that is grinding.

 

 

mark

 

It doesn't invalidate the excerpt just because the overall message is meant to champion the other TPGs. The other TPGs are just the ones that get hit the hardest by the exclusion. Which indirectly filters down to the collector as there would be no greater benefit than to evaluate a coin regardless of which TPG it is in(of the 4 still considered valid). CAC would have 10x more value on ANACS and ICG coins than it does on PCGS and NGC. And yes that is conceding that the situation in the OP is a rare exception afaik.

 

Unlike the derivatives markets coins are traded one at a time with full disclosure to retail customers and not just amongst themselves. They are not bundled. Inventory is also acquired one at a time from both dealer stock and you guessed it....the retail customer. That excerpt did make me smile. A lot.

 

mark

[numisport]

How many took the hit ? Did it just go from 67+ to 65+ in one transaction or did it take numerous losers to absorb a PCGS catastrophe ?

[MarkFeld]

How many took the hit ? Did it just go from 67+ to 65+ in one transaction or did it take numerous losers to absorb a PCGS catastrophe ?

 

The grade increased - it didn't decrease.

[mumu]

That article was to written to complain that CAC doesn't sticker ICG nor ANACS products and moderns. I suggest everyone read the entire article to see the ax that is grinding.

 

 

mark

 

It doesn't invalidate the excerpt just because the overall message is meant to champion the other TPGs. The other TPGs are just the ones that get hit the hardest by the exclusion. Which indirectly filters down to the collector as there would be no greater benefit than to evaluate a coin regardless of which TPG it is in(of the 4 still considered valid). CAC would have 10x more value on ANACS and ICG coins than it does on PCGS and NGC. And yes that is conceding that the situation in the OP is a rare exception afaik.

 

Unlike the derivatives markets coins are traded one at a time with full disclosure to retail customers and not just amongst themselves. They are not bundled. Inventory is also acquired one at a time from both dealer stock and you guessed it....the retail customer. That excerpt did make me smile. A lot.

 

mark

 

So there is no sight unseen cac purchases for large lots of bulk wholesale inventory?

[MJ]

That article was to written to complain that CAC doesn't sticker ICG nor ANACS products and moderns. I suggest everyone read the entire article to see the ax that is grinding.

 

 

mark

 

It doesn't invalidate the excerpt just because the overall message is meant to champion the other TPGs. The other TPGs are just the ones that get hit the hardest by the exclusion. Which indirectly filters down to the collector as there would be no greater benefit than to evaluate a coin regardless of which TPG it is in(of the 4 still considered valid). CAC would have 10x more value on ANACS and ICG coins than it does on PCGS and NGC. And yes that is conceding that the situation in the OP is a rare exception afaik.

 

Unlike the derivatives markets coins are traded one at a time with full disclosure to retail customers and not just amongst themselves. They are not bundled. Inventory is also acquired one at a time from both dealer stock and you guessed it....the retail customer. That excerpt did make me smile. A lot.

 

mark

 

So there is no sight unseen cac purchases for large lots of bulk wholesale inventory?

 

Is there?

 

Quit dancing. Let's say for the sake of argument there was a giant bulk CAC sight unseen deal for bulk inventory. Then what? So what?

 

Spell out how the nefarious plan would look like? Where does the stickered inventory come from? At what cost? Coins would already have to be stickered and bought on the open market. Where would be the impropriety? Spell iit out or are you just going to knock on doors, light bags of poop on fire and hide in the bushes and wait for the homeowner to stomp it out and then giggle into the night.

 

Stop with the innuendoes and actually bring something.

 

mark

[MJ]

Double post

[mumu]

Innuendos? I have been up front.

 

[MJ]

As expected

 

mark