When will Ikes time come?

[coinman_23885]

Collect what YOU like, no matter how ugly they are to everyone else...MAILMAN

 

+1

 

And I am sorry to hear that you no longer own your set (and am even sorrier to hear of the loss of your father).

[mtnstyne]

 

You are not being fair in your comparison.

 

I don't disagree with most of what you said. I didn't originate the comparison of Ikes vs Morgans but was responding to coinman1794's comparison of Ikes vs morgans in the post you quoted.

 

In fact your quote above is exactly the point I was making. That and saying 1971 P Ike's in MS66 are conditional rarities compared to all morgan's as a series. Statistically they are about the same.

 

I believe his point was that they are rare...I just disagree. To be fair morgans aren't rare either.

[World Colonial]

I just had to clarify...

 

Im selling generic raw Ikes not toned Ikes. I cant sell toned coins. But I can sell shiny silver generic discs of metal all day long, Ikes, Peace $, Morgans, ASEs. They hold no interest for me.

 

Toned Ikes can bring much higher premiums than 10-15%. Many bring 2-10x grey sheet. Not much different than toned Peace $. Toned Ikes and toned Peace $ are far more elusive than toned Morgans.

 

I am aware that toned Ikes and moderns generally that are considered particularly attractive sell for substantial premiums. I find them exorbitant but then, I am not buying them. And yes, I agree these coins are among those with above average financial potential despite their current prices because it is evident that collector preferences favor them and I think this will continue.

 

Aside from "monster" toned coins, the others I include are:

 

"Conditional" rarities and in some instances, those one grade below if the populations are relatively low.;

 

Some errors; and

 

Certain die varieties

 

For all others, I do not know what they sell for offhand without looking at auction records. I have on occasion looked at prices on Heritage and from what I recall, its only the coins I list which have any "substantial" premiums.

 

In my prior comments, I never said that the series would not increase in popularity at all, what I am saying is that given how common these coins are or most likely are outside of the specialties I listed and competing alternatives, I believe that whatever appreciation occurs will disproportionately be financially irrelevant even if someone like you makes a decent return on them in isolation.

 

As a basis of comparison, I made roughly $40,000 to $50,000 with South African "classics" from 2002 to 2010 though the opportunity has evaporated since. This is more than at least 95% of all (Ike) collectors will make in their entire life.

 

If anyone wants to buy these coins as a collectible, then go ahead and do it. If anyone thinks that they are under appreciated from a financial aspect and concurrently believes they have substantial potential except maybe as I described in this post, I see no basis for such as opinion whatsoever.

[coinman_23885]

If anyone wants to buy these coins as a collectible, then go ahead and do it. If anyone thinks that they are under appreciated from a financial aspect and concurrently believes they have substantial potential except maybe as I described in this post, I see no basis for such as opinion whatsoever.

 

But the original post was about popularity and appeal, and didn't specifically mention financial ramifications. I see the Ike much like the Morgan Dollar - relatively inexpensive even more than a hundred years after striking and I expect the Ike to follow a similar path. Yet the pieces are still in demand and there is certainly a collector base for them. Too bad none of us will likely make it to 2071-2078 to see.

[Nutmeg Coin]

I like them, but wonder how many are gathering dust in government warehouses. Also like $2 bills and Kennedys to spend, though I hear people refuse to take them like Art's Mobil who reported a $2 as a fake which turned out to be a false alarm: http://www.ncadvertiser.com/41012/police-seek-man-who-used-fake-2-bill-to-buy-dip/

[cladking]

"There are rumors around that the FED is destroying their supplies."

 

Bologna! It would show up in the Treasury report and increase the deficit -- not something anyone wants to do. All the profit would have to be recaptured.

 

The rumors are based on highly limited anecdotal evidence. Part of that evidence is that a waffled Ike appeared on the market not long back and that at least two areas that once supplied Ikes no longer do. Obviously, it's nothing but a rumor at this time.

 

Most people seem to think most of the mintage of Ikes is in FED storage but I doubt this is true. The total number of Ikes in storage isn't necessarily very high. Other than inertia there's very little reason not to destroy the coins and get them out from underfoot.

[GoldFinger1969]

Well see YOU are collecting because of nostalgia then. You never saw a Morgan in circulation. I will bet you are located on the East Coast. Lots of people who are still alive and lived on the West Coast and visited the casinos in Vegas & Reno saw them used up until the 1960s. They were the standard for slot machine use - until replaced by - oh yes the Ike dollar. Later replaced by the casino's own clad slugs.

 

Nostalgia, a bit...but SCARCITY value a bit more. See my total mintages for Ikes vs. Morgans vs. Saint Gaudens.

 

Good point about the casinos...but most kids and teens don't hang out at casinos, East or West Coast.

[GoldFinger1969]

NOBODY alive today, collecting today, used them or saw them in their youth.

Not even David Hall?

To hear the authority with which he makes pronouncements about entire series of coins, you would think he had seen every Morgan and Peace Dollar in existence in his youth in the 1960s and 1970s.

 

I meant in the years immediately following their mintage, not decades later in slot machines.

[GoldFinger1969]

1) ugly ) not rare 3) what's the melt value?This goes for all the modern dollars (ikes, SBA, sac, pres). Again, just my opinion. I agree with dadams. I can't pay $1,500 for a 1971 Ike in MS66 when I can buy a nice frosty morgan in MS66 for less.

Ike dollars above MS65 are conditionally scarce due to both poor production techniques and careless handling over the years. They are rare in MS67.

A 1971 MS66 Ike is usually a lot harder to find than an MS66 Morgan.Actually, I don't understand this thread, because high grade Ikes definitely get the attention they deserve, and the lower grades, which are common, get their proportional due. There is a good market for choice material; even CAC recognized Ikes--but not some earlier series, including silver Roosevelt dimes and silver Proof Washington Quarters.

 

You can make that case for just about any coin produced decades ago, right ? That it's rare in a super-high MS condition ?

 

For some coins, it's MS-65...others MS-67. For ASEs/Gold Eagles/Gold Buffalos, they're not even rare in MS-69 or MS-70, so...........

[GoldFinger1969]

Here's some numbers to chew on: In only 8 years, there were over 680 million regular Ikes minted. Plus another 17 million Uncirculateds, and 30 million Proofs. All in the 1970's, when coin collecting exploded.Conversely, there were about 656 million Morgan Silver Dollars over 28 years. And very few people were collecting over the 1877-1921 period (no Morgans from 1905-1920, BTW). Many were lost and/or melted down.And only about 103 million Liberty $20 Gold coins in over 50 years of production. Again, many lost...overseas....melted down.And only about 68 million Saint Gaudens 20 Gold coins over 20 years. Ditto on the overseas and melted down.So.....not only do you have a much larger supply of a relatively 'bland' coin, but it's unlikely to develop numismatic appeal. All of the coins I mentioned above have big historical significance: the Silver vs. Gold debates (William Jennings Bryan, "you shall not crucify...blah blah"), the use of silver and gold to back the U.S. Dollar, the Gold Standard, financing international trade, the artistry and history behind the coins (the difficulty of making coins compared to today), etc.It's unlikely you're going to see the same nostalgia for Ikes in 10-20 years (50-60 years after their mintage) that you saw for Liberty's in the 1950's or Saints in the 1970's, 50+ years after they ceased production.

 

Mintage figures have no baring on the grades of surviving coins. Morgan dollars are far more common in high grades than Ike dollars, due to the factors I mentioned already.

 

Yes, I agree...but the fact that you have such a high quality of supply in lower-grades means that you numerically have a higher chance of surviving quantity into the higher grades, too.

 

If there are only 150,000 Saints or Liberty's produced in a particular year, relative to the supply of collectors and how many of those could be MS-65 and above -- let alone MS-67 and above -- it's going to encounter scarcity value, or certainly is MORE LIKELY to encounter scarcity value than a coin for which there were millions minted.

 

Of course....even if 40 million were minted in 1 year, it's possible that every single one circulated and high mint states are next to impossible. That certainly explains why many of the non-hoard Morgans might be lower-MS or below. Not that many people could afford to be collectors in the late-1800's/early-1900's. Unless you lived near a big city, how could you collect back then ? A kid on a farm in a Midwestern state or in a territory was cut off from collecting even if he had a few $$$.

 

I would be shocked if Ikes ever approached Morgans in popularity.

[GoldFinger1969]

And for those commenting that no one is alive that received a Morgan Dollar in circulation, this is not exactly true. The coins were widely held by banks and one could take silver certificates and exchange them at many banks for Morgan and Peace Dollars even in the early 1960s. And many are also forgetting about the GSA releases in the 1970s. In short, I can see parallels between the Morgan series and the Ikes. Both seem over produced and arguably under appreciated

 

Point noted, and it's a good one, I admit.

 

However....again.....700 million total Ikes (Unc + Proofs + Other) in only 8 or 9 years when coin collecting was all the rage.....a smaller total of Morgans produced over 28 years when collecting wasn't important, surviving dyptheria or TB or polio or influenza was. How many kids -- even adults -- could store away Morgan Silver Dollars, given what $1 would buy back then (forget about Liberty/Saints from 1870 - 1930).

 

And finally, for those ignoring the Ikes - I think this is exactly why the issues will become increasingly scarce as time goes on. Collectors treat them nonchalantly and many are handled without proper care. As such, I expect that the supply of truly well preserved examples will shrink as time goes on.

 

Maybe....but like Caped Busts, you may have only a few well-heeled folks willing to buy MS-67 and above Ikes in 20/30/40 years. The much larger population will depress price appreciation for the masses of Ikes and the masses of collectors who own them.

 

It's not unlike the super-rare baseball card in the Fleer/Donruss/Tops/Upper Deck 1990's sets....99.5% junk, maybe 0.5% worth keeping. For coins, I think it's more 99.99% vs. 0.01%.

 

Edited: I think the low price and availability of lower mint state Morgan Dollars is part of the reason for the higher demand. Most kids are hooked with their first silver dollar purchase. I remember my first Morgan Dollar - a common date with slight but attractive toning - and it helped pique my interest in them. I can see parallels in the availability and pricing of Morgans to Ikes. It might take a couple of decades, but I see it happening.

 

Could happen....I just think that the Morgan Dollar has a sexier story throughout history which stokes demand, from the silver debates of the late-1980's...the ceasing of coins in the early-1900's....the revival.....discontinuation....Paul Volcker selling off the Silver hoard in the 1960's for $1/oz.....and then the GSA release.

[coinman1794]

Ike dollars above MS65 are conditionally scarce due to both poor production techniques and careless handling over the years. They are rare in MS67.

 

According to the NGC census 87.3% of all Ike's submitted are graded MS65 or higher.

 

There have been over 11,000 Ikes graded in MS66 and over 16% of all submitted to NGC are graded MS66. Less than 3% of all morgans are graded MS66.

 

A 1971 MS66 Ike is usually a lot harder to find than an MS66 Morgan.

 

I can buy a 1971 MS66 Ike online right now for about $20-$35.

 

There have been over 11,000 Ikes graded in MS66 and over 16% of all submitted to NGC are graded MS66. Less than 3% of all morgans are graded MS66.

 

If you want to talk apples to apples then sure the 1971P Ike is a "conditional" rarity if you want to go with that, NGC has only graded 37 in MS66. But then compare it to the keys of the morgan set rather than the entire series. Overall high graded Ikes are not conditional rarities...rather there just hasn't been that many sent in to be graded by comparison.

 

I don't know how many PCGS has graded, but I would argue that there are dozens or hundreds (if not more) 1971 P Ikes in MS66 that just haven't been sent to a TPG to be put in it's plastic tomb. I seriously doubt there are dozens of 1889 CC Morgans in MS66 that have not been submitted.

 

There are less ms65+ Ike's graded simply because there have been a fraction of the total amount sent in for grading (around 0.01% of the mintage with NGC or 1 out of every 10,000 minted.)

 

Mint state Eisenhower's aren't rare, they just aren't slabbed yet.

 

Again, it's just my opinion, I have a drawer full of mint sets with Ikes in them for my birth year (1971), some are very nice MS examples. However, I would never send one in for submission unless it had exceptional eye appeal for toning or PL surfaces.

 

There are differences between business strikes, silver mint set S coins, and Proof coins, so comparing a 1971-P to a 1971-S is apples to oranges. I have been talking about business strike IKEs, of which, NGC has graded 5,644 in MS66. There are 38 1971-P coins in MS66, with none finer. This date will run you $500-$1000 depending on eye appeal.

 

It would be interesting to see an analysis of business strikes.

[orifdoc]

Where I grew up, in the Rockies, you'd see Ikes in circulation up to the mid 1980s. They weren't as common as Kennedys (which you'd see quite often), but everyone was familiar with them and used them.

 

The bald-headed alien on the obverse isn't terribly attractive. While many disagree, I quite like the reverse. It speaks to the era and the enthusiasm surrounding the Apollo program.

 

The hobby isn't entirely comfortable with clad coinage yet. The designs don't help. Lack of intrinsic value doesn't help. Things might slowly change, but I wouldn't take the retirement fund and dump it into Ikes hoping for an explosion in value.

[coinman1794]

1) ugly ) not rare 3) what's the melt value?This goes for all the modern dollars (ikes, SBA, sac, pres). Again, just my opinion. I agree with dadams. I can't pay $1,500 for a 1971 Ike in MS66 when I can buy a nice frosty morgan in MS66 for less.

Ike dollars above MS65 are conditionally scarce due to both poor production techniques and careless handling over the years. They are rare in MS67.

A 1971 MS66 Ike is usually a lot harder to find than an MS66 Morgan.Actually, I don't understand this thread, because high grade Ikes definitely get the attention they deserve, and the lower grades, which are common, get their proportional due. There is a good market for choice material; even CAC recognized Ikes--but not some earlier series, including silver Roosevelt dimes and silver Proof Washington Quarters.

 

You can make that case for just about any coin produced decades ago, right ? That it's rare in a super-high MS condition ?

 

For some coins, it's MS-65...others MS-67. For ASEs/Gold Eagles/Gold Buffalos, they're not even rare in MS-69 or MS-70, so...........

 

You can make that case for many coins, but not in a comparison of Ikes to Morgans.

 

Ikes were poorly manufactured, and most do not qualify as gems--right out of the Mint. Their age has little baring on their condition. MS66 is scarce or rare, depending on the date, and the highest grading IKE is an MS67. Morgan dollars were made with a very high quality, and they are readily available in MS66. They can be found on the market, without too much searching, as high as MS68; and the highest grade is an MS69.

[coinman1794]

In summation, I would argue that "Ikes time" is already here. The conditional rarities sell for hundreds or thousands of dollars in todays market. As some have suggested, the possibility exists that many more could be graded in the coming years. IF that is the case, prices are sure to fall on the high grades. More coins also means more collector base and a steadier market cycle. The coins simply are not available in high grade right now, and prices can be volatile.

 

There have been falling prices over the past 8 years on MS66 coins, as many more have been graded. Only a small number of MS67s have appeared, in comparison, and their prices remain high, currently.

[GoldFinger1969]

Ikes were poorly manufactured, and most do not qualify as gems--right out of the Mint. Their age has little baring on their condition. MS66 is scarce or rare, depending on the date, and the highest grading IKE is an MS67. Morgan dollars were made with a very high quality, and they are readily available in MS66. They can be found on the market, without too much searching, as high as MS68; and the highest grade is an MS69.

 

Why were Ikes poorly made, the size ? Surely, striking and coinage techniques improved alot over 80-90 years such that quality should not have been a problem, unless the Mint was just rushing them all out, save the Proofs.

[GoldFinger1969]

In summation, I would argue that "Ikes time" is already here. The conditional rarities sell for hundreds or thousands of dollars in todays market. As some have suggested, the possibility exists that many more could be graded in the coming years. IF that is the case, prices are sure to fall on the high grades.

 

Maybe not...could also stoke increased investor interest, though I doubt it.

 

Look at how the 1933 Double Eagle court case has stoked interest in Saint Gaudens gold pieces.

 

More coins also means more collector base and a steadier market cycle. The coins simply are not available in high grade right now, and prices can be volatile.

 

My point above...agreed. Too limited a market results in discontiguous pricing, not a real market pricing.

 

 

[GoldFinger1969]

At least with Ikes you have only a few special rarities and the coins are 'done' being produced....not like all these First Strikes and Special Early's and MS-70/69 moderns flooding the market.

 

So that's a plus for any newcomers getting into the game and looking at Ikes.....

[19Lyds]

What is wrong with Ikes? they do not seem as popular as other dollar coins. Is the popularity of Ikes (Silver and Non-Silver) on the rise? or am I mistaken, and they have always been as popular as say a Morgan or Peace Dollar?

 

What are your thoughts?

What is "wrong" with them is that they are still available at any US Bank on any given day.

 

As far as I know, you can still order a 1,000 coin bag of them.

 

The second thing that is wrong is that a majority of them are CnClad Coins so what's wrong with the IKE is the same thing that's "wrong" with a 1998 Washington Quarter.

 

Of course, this leaning toward being "wrong" only opens doors for astute collectors as it enables the finding of some really nice pieces which really do exist out there.

 

Every coin has a collectible purpose and while it may not earn millions in the long run, it still has a collectible interest with regard to strike and quality of preservation. Just ask anybody that has an MS68 CnClad version.

 

My opinion of ANYBODY that speaks badly or derogatorily of or about someone that collects Eisenhower Dollars is that they should NOT consider themselves or even be considered by someone else as numismatists.

 

[19Lyds]

Ike dollars above MS65 are conditionally scarce due to both poor production techniques and careless handling over the years. They are rare in MS67.

 

According to the NGC census 87.3% of all Ike's submitted are graded MS65 or higher.

 

There have been over 11,000 Ikes graded in MS66 and over 16% of all submitted to NGC are graded MS66. Less than 3% of all morgans are graded MS66.

 

A 1971 MS66 Ike is usually a lot harder to find than an MS66 Morgan.

 

I can buy a 1971 MS66 Ike online right now for about $20-$35.

 

There have been over 11,000 Ikes graded in MS66 and over 16% of all submitted to NGC are graded MS66. Less than 3% of all morgans are graded MS66.

 

If you want to talk apples to apples then sure the 1971P Ike is a "conditional" rarity if you want to go with that, NGC has only graded 37 in MS66. But then compare it to the keys of the morgan set rather than the entire series. Overall high graded Ikes are not conditional rarities...rather there just hasn't been that many sent in to be graded by comparison.

 

I don't know how many PCGS has graded, but I would argue that there are dozens or hundreds (if not more) 1971 P Ikes in MS66 that just haven't been sent to a TPG to be put in it's plastic tomb. I seriously doubt there are dozens of 1889 CC Morgans in MS66 that have not been submitted.

 

There are less ms65+ Ike's graded simply because there have been a fraction of the total amount sent in for grading (around 0.01% of the mintage with NGC or 1 out of every 10,000 minted.)

 

Mint state Eisenhower's aren't rare, they just aren't slabbed yet.

 

Again, it's just my opinion, I have a drawer full of mint sets with Ikes in them for my birth year (1971), some are very nice MS examples. However, I would never send one in for submission unless it had exceptional eye appeal for toning or PL surfaces.

What? Huh?

 

Take your head out of your butt and understand that folks only submit Eisenhower Dollars if the "think" that they'll score a money grade. That is the ONLY reason that the numbers are skewed in the direction which you so proudly post.

 

As for buying a 1971 IKE in MS66 for $20 - $35 online right now? THIS destroys any credibility that you might think you possess with your statistical ramblings.

[e1cnr]

Ikes were poorly manufactured, and most do not qualify as gems--right out of the Mint. Their age has little baring on their condition. MS66 is scarce or rare, depending on the date, and the highest grading IKE is an MS67. Morgan dollars were made with a very high quality, and they are readily available in MS66. They can be found on the market, without too much searching, as high as MS68; and the highest grade is an MS69.

 

Why were Ikes poorly made, the size ? Surely, striking and coinage techniques improved alot over 80-90 years such that quality should not have been a problem, unless the Mint was just rushing them all out, save the Proofs.

 

The Copper Nickel clad coinage is much harder than the 90% silver used in the past. With large diameter coins (dollar,half) this meant applying more pressure to get full strikes. When you start punching at over 100 tons pressure, something gives, and it was very fast wear on the dies. The mint has no desire to have dies last less than 3000 strikes, when they prefer over 100K.

 

So yes, striking and coinage techniques improved over the last 90 years - but not as fast as the metallurgy making planchets that would wear very slow and last a long time. The 'hardness' of the coin has gotten too close to the 'hardness' of the die.

[TonerGuy]

One last thing.... since Ive opened and searched a mere 6000 Ikes in the past several months I think I can say there is a pattern to the Ikes that are still sitting in Fed banks...

 

The P coins are hard to come by. The D coins are by far the majority of what is sitting in bags. Most of the bags I have opened have 50-65% of the coins that I have reviewed are damaged. 20-30% are XF to AU and the remaining 5 to 20% are UNCs. Out of those UNCs most are MS60-63/64. A few are 65s and perhaps a handful (of 6000 Ikes) are MS66s.

 

I would assume that most of the high end MS65-67 business strike graded coins were and have already been pulled from Mint Sets. Are there still high end coins in Mint Sets waiting to be found - probably. Are there a few high end MS coins still sitting in bags - D mints - probably, P mints - probably not.

 

71-P coins are almost non-existent in bags. Out of 6000 coins I believe I have found 20 that are nice UNCs. None that I would say are MS66s.

 

Interestingly, I have found about the same amount of badly worn (non-damaged) Ikes has I have found pristine examples. (I have 8 coins that are F to VF). It really is a bell curve. With the mean grade being AU 53 (of the coins that are not damaged).

 

While 6000 Ikes is by no means a great representative sample it is possible to see some patterns. Ultimately, I think there will be more high end coins made in the coming years. I dont know that I would be investing my retirement funds in high MS graded Ikes either. However, a slight tightening in grading standards as more Ikes are submitted along with an increase in the number of registry sets and even an interest in Dansco Ike sets could cause a slight to moderate rise in Ike prices.

 

However, in regards to the numbers of Ikes vs. the number of Morgans, many many Morgans have been melted over the years. Who even knows what the surviving total numbers are. Morgans did circulate so there are plenty of circulated Morgans in the world that havent been melted.

 

Ikes did circulate but since they are clad they wear a lot slower than softer silver Morgans and many (50-65%) are circulated damaged coins (counting machines and slot machines responsible for most damage) So out of the 680 million Ikes perhaps 300-400 million are damaged and hold zero numismatic value. Perhaps the numbers of total surviving Morgans and surviving non-damaged Ikes are about the same.

 

Its easy to say that all Ikes are in great condition when all you are looking at are pop reports and dealers cases at shows. Not until you get into searching bags do you really get a better idea of the number of good to excellent coins out there.

 

High end business strike Ikes (MS66-68) are in my opinion more rare than MS66-68 Morgans.

 

I dont know of any $1000 original Ike Mint sealed bags still in existence or for sale. All of the bags I have searched are plastic and heat sealed. No one at the Mint put thousands of Ike bags in a vault and let them sit for the past 40 yrs. Morgans, because of their silver content definitely had an advantage in that regard.

[19Lyds]

One last thing.... since Ive opened and searched a mere 6000 Ikes in the past several months I think I can say there is a pattern to the Ikes that are still sitting in Fed banks...

 

The P coins are hard to come by. The D coins are by far the majority of what is sitting in bags. Most of the bags I have opened have 50-65% of the coins that I have reviewed are damaged. 20-30% are XF to AU and the remaining 5 to 20% are UNCs. Out of those UNCs most are MS60-63/64. A few are 65s and perhaps a handful (of 6000 Ikes) are MS66s.

 

I would assume that most of the high end MS65-67 business strike graded coins were and have already been pulled from Mint Sets. Are there still high end coins in Mint Sets waiting to be found - probably. Are there a few high end MS coins still sitting in bags - D mints - probably, P mints - probably not.

 

71-P coins are almost non-existent in bags. Out of 6000 coins I believe I have found 20 that are nice UNCs. None that I would say are MS66s.

 

Interestingly, I have found about the same amount of badly worn (non-damaged) Ikes has I have found pristine examples. (I have 8 coins that are F to VF). It really is a bell curve. With the mean grade being AU 53 (of the coins that are not damaged).

 

While 6000 Ikes is by no means a great representative sample it is possible to see some patterns. Ultimately, I think there will be more high end coins made in the coming years. I dont know that I would be investing my retirement funds in high MS graded Ikes either. However, a slight tightening in grading standards as more Ikes are submitted along with an increase in the number of registry sets and even an interest in Dansco Ike sets could cause a slight to moderate rise in Ike prices.

 

However, in regards to the numbers of Ikes vs. the number of Morgans, many many Morgans have been melted over the years. Who even knows what the surviving total numbers are. Morgans did circulate so there are plenty of circulated Morgans in the world that havent been melted.

 

Ikes did circulate but since they are clad they wear a lot slower than softer silver Morgans and many (50-65%) are circulated damaged coins (counting machines and slot machines responsible for most damage) So out of the 680 million Ikes perhaps 300-400 million are damaged and hold zero numismatic value. Perhaps the numbers of total surviving Morgans and surviving non-damaged Ikes are about the same.

 

Its easy to say that all Ikes are in great condition when all you are looking at are pop reports and dealers cases at shows. Not until you get into searching bags do you really get a better idea of the number of good to excellent coins out there.

 

High end business strike Ikes (MS66-68) are in my opinion more rare than MS66-68 Morgans.

 

I dont know of any $1000 original Ike Mint sealed bags still in existence or for sale. All of the bags I have searched are plastic and heat sealed. No one at the Mint put thousands of Ike bags in a vault and let them sit for the past 40 yrs. Morgans, because of their silver content definitely had an advantage in that regard.

I might disagree with you on the topic of mint sealed bag as there are still many millions in Federal Reserve Vaults and I have absolutely no doubt that a good percentage of those are canvas mint sealed.

 

Why?

 

Simple. Despite certain claims, IKE's never really circulated. Their largest user were the Casinos in Nevada and other than that (like the Morgan Dollar) merchants and people simply did not use them in day to day commercial transactions. Very few ever really made the rounds at the local super market.

Endless grinding in Dollar Slots would quickly wear away the rims creating these well worn examples but I am apprehensive to state that any well worn IKE you see today is the result of commercial circulation.

 

Now, when IKE's get returned to the banks, like all other denominations, they get put into plastic coin bags via counting/sorting coin machines. They then get counted again once they get prepped for shipment to a storage facility.

The coins we see in those bags are a mixture of casino coins and coins which end up onesy-twosy back at the bank from old souvenir collections and/or circulation finds from folks that spend them as tips and whatever.

 

I believe that a hard search of the Federal Vaults would uncover a literal gold mine of mint sealed sacks. They are, after all, hard cash.

[TonerGuy]

Llyds19 - I have no reason to doubt you. I just havent come across any original Mint bags for sale. Nor have I even seen empty Ike stamped Mint bags for sale.

 

Have you ? If so do you remember the last time you saw one ?

 

Is it possible that there are hundreds of millions of pristine Ikes sitting in Fed vaults - sure - but it may require another GSA release of dollars to get to those coins - much like the Morgan GSA release. I just dont see the demand for those coins being the same though. Though I do dream of placing an order and receiving a canvas Mint sealed bag.

 

The one thing I do have to wonder, if the Ikes in the plastic bags are all counted in the manner in which you say - wouldnt they all have some indication of counting wheel marks ? That 5-20% of the UNC Ikes that I found in the bags have no damage whatsoever to the rims or the reeding. I dont know counting machines really work so I dont know if its possible for a coin to get put through them several times without some sign of damage, especially on a big heavy coin like an Ike.

 

The 8 F-VF Ikes I have found are definitely from circulation though. Again they dont have any rim damage that is still visible.

 

Edited to add...

 

Here's photo from a story about $1 Billion in $1 coins piling up in Fed vaults

 

 

I see one pallet of canvas bags. The rest are plastic.

 

Here's another photo but its hard to tell whats plastic and whats canvas..

 

 

Here's a quote from the story...

 

Through the bags, one could see Sacagawea mingling with Suffragette Susan B. Anthony and rubbing edges with some of America's early chief executives. Glaring fluorescent lights coaxed an occasional shimmer from the dollars, which are made mostly of manganese brass and have a gold color.

 

I dont know how many of the $1 billion are Ikes, SBAs, SACs and now Prez Dollars. I cant imagine 1/3 are Ikes though. Billions more SBAs, SACS and Prez Dollars have been coined since 1978.

 

Edited to add another photo... there appears to be some Ikes in canvas bags in this photo along with coins in plastic bags but its hard to tell if they are original Mint bags though. I dont see any printing on any of them...

 

[RWB]

Canvas bags were routinely used for repackaging circulated coins. Do not assume that a canvas bag contains uncirculated coins.

 

PS: The Ike dollar's time will come Wednesday at 13:16 UT and end at 13:37 UT the same date.

[World Colonial]

In summation, I would argue that "Ikes time" is already here. The conditional rarities sell for hundreds or thousands of dollars in todays market. As some have suggested, the possibility exists that many more could be graded in the coming years. IF that is the case, prices are sure to fall on the high grades. More coins also means more collector base and a steadier market cycle. The coins simply are not available in high grade right now, and prices can be volatile.

 

There have been falling prices over the past 8 years on MS66 coins, as many more have been graded. Only a small number of MS67s have appeared, in comparison, and their prices remain high, currently.

 

First, to reply to your prior comment on my prior post, there are two measures of popularity. The one which matters the most to the most collectors is the price and the second is the number of collectors which impacts availability. Unless the OP tells me otherwise, I presume their question was on the price because except for the specialization I described previously, there is never going to be an issue of the coins being available to be bought.

 

Second, on this post I am quoting, I don't see how Ikes differ from any other series. Using this definition, every series has "arrived" because every one of them are collected as "conditional rarities". There isn't anything significant about this fact that I can see.

 

Ikes I presume are more popular than most modern series (I believe all but the cent) and maybe a few classics such as the and 3CN but that is all.

 

I place them lower on the preference scale than maybe others perceive them because there is a difference between "popularity" as measured by the number of collectors and an actual preference. As I attempted to describe in a prior thread, simply because a series is more widely collected than another one doesn't mean it is actually preferred. In my prior posts I used the example of Morgan versus early dollars. Morgans are more "popular" because the coins are cheaper and available but there is no doubt in my mind that early US dollars are actually preferred by a lopsided proportion.

 

The most objective measure of collector preferences occurs when someone buys one coin over all others in the same price range. Using this completely logical standard, I can conclude that Ike collectors who buy the more expensive specimens prefer them. The lopsided proportion of all others presumably still like them but primarily do so out of budget constraints and will buy something else by a lopsided proportion given the opportunity.

 

To comment on subsequent posts on the grade distribution, I took a look at the PCGS census today. Outside of the 1971-P and 1972-P, none of these are really even "grade scarce". Most of the date/MM combinations have census counts in the hundreds even in MS-66. Extrapolating these numbers using the logic I described in that other thread, its almost certainly likely that most of these coins are an R-1 on the Judd scale (over 1250 and probably by a huge margin in this instance) in MS-66 and even these scarcer issues are likely in the R-3 range (251-500) or an R-2 (501-1250) in MS-65, depending upon the coin. These numbers are higher than all but the most common classics (common date Morgans, Peace $, WLH, silver Washington quarters).

[19Lyds]

Llyds19 - I have no reason to doubt you. I just havent come across any original Mint bags for sale. Nor have I even seen empty Ike stamped Mint bags for sale.

 

Have you ? If so do you remember the last time you saw one ?

 

Is it possible that there are hundreds of millions of pristine Ikes sitting in Fed vaults - sure - but it may require another GSA release of dollars to get to those coins - much like the Morgan GSA release. I just dont see the demand for those coins being the same though. Though I do dream of placing an order and receiving a canvas Mint sealed bag.

 

The one thing I do have to wonder, if the Ikes in the plastic bags are all counted in the manner in which you say - wouldnt they all have some indication of counting wheel marks ? That 5-20% of the UNC Ikes that I found in the bags have no damage whatsoever to the rims or the reeding. I dont know counting machines really work so I dont know if its possible for a coin to get put through them several times without some sign of damage, especially on a big heavy coin like an Ike.

 

The 8 F-VF Ikes I have found are definitely from circulation though. Again they dont have any rim damage that is still visible.

 

Edited to add...

 

Here's photo from a story about $1 Billion in $1 coins piling up in Fed vaults

 

 

I see one pallet of canvas bags. The rest are plastic.

 

Here's another photo but its hard to tell whats plastic and whats canvas..

 

 

Here's a quote from the story...

 

Through the bags, one could see Sacagawea mingling with Suffragette Susan B. Anthony and rubbing edges with some of America's early chief executives. Glaring fluorescent lights coaxed an occasional shimmer from the dollars, which are made mostly of manganese brass and have a gold color.

 

I dont know how many of the $1 billion are Ikes, SBAs, SACs and now Prez Dollars. I cant imagine 1/3 are Ikes though. Billions more SBAs, SACS and Prez Dollars have been coined since 1978.

 

Edited to add another photo... there appears to be some Ikes in canvas bags in this photo along with coins in plastic bags but its hard to tell if they are original Mint bags though. I dont see any printing on any of them...

 

The last time I purchased an original mint sewn bag of IKE's was in 2010. It was a bag of 1978's.

 

I know of a fella here in the Northern California area that has multiple original mint sewn bags of IKE's in his safe. I only see him on occasion and the next time I do, I'll inquire on a price. Again.

 

There was a reason they quit making the Eisenhower Dollar and that reason was that nobody wanted them yet in 1978 alone they minted 58.7 million of them. 1977 saw 45.5 million produced and the BiCentennial coins were over 200 million.

 

If nobody was ordering these (i.e. merchants to give out as change) except for Casino's, where do you suppose all those brand new coins reside?

 

Almost forgot, in January 2008, 4 1000 coin bags were screened and submitted to PCGS which produced some fairly big ticket coins.

 

They are out there, they come up for sale on occasion but I expect that there are many more in the Federal Reserve Vaults. Probably right next to the Presidential Dollars.

 

IF, congress comes to their senses and eliminates the paper buck, I expect that a lot will come to surface. Typically, folks ask $2+ bucks per coin for a sealed bag although I did purchase a bag of 1972 IKE's in 2007 for $1850. The bag had been opened and did not yield any Type 2's but it did yield nearly a dozen rare PegLeg Type ones and some nice MS65 coins which were enough to pay for the bag.

[TonerGuy]

The last time I purchased an original mint sewn bag of IKE's was in 2010. It was a bag of 1978's.

 

I know of a fella here in the Northern California area that has multiple original mint sewn bags of IKE's in his safe. I only see him on occasion and the next time I do, I'll inquire on a price. Again.

 

There was a reason they quit making the Eisenhower Dollar and that reason was that nobody wanted them yet in 1978 alone they minted 58.7 million of them. 1977 saw 45.5 million produced and the BiCentennial coins were over 200 million.

 

If nobody was ordering these (i.e. merchants to give out as change) except for Casino's, where do you suppose all those brand new coins reside?

 

Almost forgot, in January 2008, 4 1000 coin bags were screened and submitted to PCGS which produced some fairly big ticket coins.

 

They are out there, they come up for sale on occasion but I expect that there are many more in the Federal Reserve Vaults. Probably right next to the Presidential Dollars.

 

IF, congress comes to their senses and eliminates the paper buck, I expect that a lot will come to surface. Typically, folks ask $2+ bucks per coin for a sealed bag although I did purchase a bag of 1972 IKE's in 2007 for $1850. The bag had been opened and did not yield any Type 2's but it did yield nearly a dozen rare PegLeg Type ones and some nice MS65 coins which were enough to pay for the bag.

 

Very nice! Congrats on the Mint sewn bag. I am actually happy to know they still exist and are out there. Perhaps one day I will get my hands on one.

 

I dont think Congress will come to their senses (in someway thats an oxymoron) and if they did I think the Ikes would be the last to go, if they went at all. You couldnt really confuse the public with 2 different dollar sized coins on the market at the same time. And since most of the vending industry was already forced to change to the new metallic composition of the SACs and Prez Dollars those would probably be released first. I think the SBAs would completely languish the GSA would sell off the Ikes in bags of $25-$1000 as another Mint offering for collectors.

 

 

[mtnstyne]

It would be interesting to see an analysis of business strikes.

 

52,874 Total Graded by NGC

 

6,150 MS64 (11.6%)

39,218 MS65 (74.1%)

5,644 MS66 (10.7%)

114 MS67 (0.2%)

 

[coinman_23885]

It would be interesting to see an analysis of business strikes.

 

52,874 Total Graded by NGC

 

6,150 MS64 (11.6%)

39,218 MS65 (74.1%)

5,644 MS66 (10.7%)

114 MS67 (0.2%)

 

I know you are just posting data and not making claims. So my comments are not directed at you.

 

With that said, for anyone looking at the data, I believe it is distorted and is an example of the caution that should be used with statistics as it might not show the complete story. I think the mentality that many have with Ike Dollars is a better explanation rather than the pieces necessarily being more common than predecessor coins at certain grade levels. Very few people will submit an Eisenhower Dollar grading less than MS65; however, a number of people have submitted Morgan and Peace Dollars grading less than MS65 for reasons that are still beyond me in many cases. This is true even with the super common dates. So it would make sense to me that the percentage of gem Ikes graded in MS65 relative to lower grades would be higher than one would expect.