These exact colors on a morgan would go unquestioned

[mumu]

Dont get me wrong. I think it is 100% AT...but on a morgan it would be your typical crescent toner. It would match sunnywoods transitions rules, and yet most think that a doctor can do this to a Peace dollar but cant do this to a morgan.

 

[RWB]

I wouldn't accept it on any coin.

[TonerGuy]

I have to agree with RWB - I wouldnt accept that as MA on a Morgan either.

[James_OldeTowne]

I have to agree with RWB - I wouldnt accept that as MA on a Morgan either.

And I agree as well. That toning looks very odd, regardless of color progression.

[johnny9434]

I wouldn't accept it on any coin.

+1 gladly

[Kurtdog]

Dont get me wrong. I think it is 100% AT...but on a morgan it would be your typical crescent toner. It would match sunnywoods transitions rules, and yet most think that a doctor can do this to a Peace dollar but cant do this to a morgan.

That's silly. A typical crescent toner obeying the sunnywoods transitions rules and still it's 100% AT on this Peace Dollar. I wouldn't worry my tiny little head too much over that apparent dilemma, though. The pros will tell us what it is, that's what they're there for. As for me, I'd like it if it's NT, but not if it's AT. That's why I now buy all my toned coins certified. It's really the only sure way to know whether I like them and I'd hate to buy a toned coin I just thought I liked but really didn't like. I'd just feel like I was made a sap of.

[MarkFeld]

I wouldn't accept it on any coin.

 

Agreed, and generally speaking, I don't think informed collectors and dealers would, either.

[mumu]

And neither would the TPGs right...(the morgans are graded Battle Creeks)

 

[BLive1972]

I saw this Morgan recently, and it has the same type of yellow and blue, just a lot more of it I don't think it looks too bad, but prob a silly high price on it

[MarkFeld]

I saw this Morgan recently, and it has the same type of yellow and blue, just a lot more of it I don't think it looks too bad, but prob a silly high price on it

 

To me, at least, that coin's color and the color seen on the one in the post above yours, look very different from the one which is the subject of this thread.

[mumu]

So let's juice the P$ how the Battle Creek MS 63 morgan is juiced....and let me get this straight...

 

[mumu]

And just to be thorough:

 

[mumu]

I am tempted to show a 5 year old these pictures and ask them if they can see the difference in color. You know how those chain letters that go around sometimes where they ask adults really easy question that are so obvious they cant get but the 5 year olds get right away..like "What is it Rich men want, poor men have but yadda yadda yadda" or whatever they are.

[BLive1972]

Nice Battlecreek

 

Mark-

 

The Morgans color definitely looks more original. The type of colors just reminded me of it. You are the pro though

 

So, at least now I know that Peace dollars don't tone in this fashion. Good to know.

[mumu]

Just to be clear in what Im saying. I think the Peace dollar and the Battle Creek morgan i cropped next to it are AT

[SkyMan]

Just to be clear in what Im saying. I think the Peace dollar and the Battle Creek morgan i cropped next to it are AT

 

So let me get this straight, you believe the Battle Creek coins to be AT?

[mumu]

Just to be clear in what Im saying. I think the Peace dollar and the Battle Creek morgan i cropped next to it are AT

 

So let me get this straight, you believe the Battle Creek coins to be AT?

 

Ill state it like this, if a coin doctor can do that to a Peace dollar, he can do it to a Morgan.

[mtnstyne]

The color progression on the peace to me is what makes it look unnatural. Seems that the rims are what generally have the darker toning and to see the darker streak go through the center of the coin and lighten to the edge looks odd.

[mumu]

The color progression on the peace to me is what makes it look unnatural. Seems that the rims are what generally have the darker toning and to see the darker streak go through the center of the coin and lighten to the edge looks odd.

 

Not sure what you mean. My last picture shows exact same color order.

[PLM]

The original Battle Creek is juiced like crazy. Many old Battle Creek images are highly juiced. Check out the other images the seller of that original coin has in his listing: http://www.ebay.com/itm/190803836224?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1438.l2649

The original image looks AT to me but the newer images look NT. When images are highly juiced it is hard to tell AT from NT.

[dimefreak]

[BLive1972]

Mine starts off with different colors, and I believe it's not AT. I think the colors are unique to this collection.

 

 

 

[mkman123]

I'm not qualified to answer so I will sit back and read, but I do understand what mumu is trying to say.

[SkyMan]

Just to be clear in what Im saying. I think the Peace dollar and the Battle Creek morgan i cropped next to it are AT

 

So let me get this straight, you believe the Battle Creek coins to be AT?

 

Ill state it like this, if a coin doctor can do that to a Peace dollar, he can do it to a Morgan.

 

I happen to believe that you are wrong with regards to the BC coins. As the subject has been

 

 

I'm not going to argue with you. I had the chance to view ALL the BC Morgans at all 5 of their auctions, and IMO they are some of the most amazing NT toned coins that I've seen in my ~ 25 years of collecting coins. Suffice it to say that most of the top Morgan dollar toner collectors that were still collecting bought BC coins, including Sunnywood. Further, many of the BC coins were subsequently cracked and sent ATS and PCGS slabbed them too.

 

I would agree that what a coin doctor can do with a Peace dollar he/she can do with a Morgan. I would also say, that NT Peace dollar toning patterns are significantly different than NT Morgan dollar toning patterns.

 

As I'm sure you are well aware of, images can be quite misleading. Back in the late '80's and early '90's I put together a complete set of PCGS rattler Peace dollars in MS64-5. Ever since then I've loved Peace dollars and prefer them to Morgans. There are various Peace dollars that you have posted, including at least one in your sig line, that look AT to me. However, I've kept my mouth shut in the belief that you, as the person who has seen the coin(s) in hand, was qualified to make the call and I was not.

 

I was a previous owner of the coin that you have posted. I was the one who bought it out of the BC3 auction. I had it imaged. The image you have posted was done by Laura DeFalco. Yes, to a certain extent it is juiced, but to a certain extent it is valid. The better BC coins friggin' glow. There are NT attributes to the coin that you can not see in the image. Here is another BC coin that I also won at the BC3 auction. As you can see, the toning pattern is quite similar to the coin you posted. The first image is also by Laura. I later had it imaged by Bob Campbell. The second image is his. It also is a valid image of the coin. You'll note, if you look in between the curls of Liberty's hair, that there is a different color progression based on the topography of the design, which is a classic diagnostic of NT coins. In a like manner there were height based shadings of toning in the coin that you posted above (I sold it later, hence I don't have a Bob Campbell image of it). You'll note that the AT Peace dollar you posted did not show this progression.

 

 

 

FWIW, IMO the above coin in reality looks somewhere between the Laura and Bob image.

 

So, I think that your basic premise, that a coin doc can do the same things to Morgans that he/she can to Peace dollars is correct. However, NT Peace dollars in general have a significantly different look than NT Morgans do, and toning patterns that would not raise a red flag on a Morgan would raise a red flag on a Peace dollar.

[James_OldeTowne]

And neither would the TPGs right...(the morgans are graded Battle Creeks)

 

All three of those Battle Creek coins are clearly legitimate (or at least "more" legitimate") than the OP.

[James_OldeTowne]

So let's juice the P$ how the Battle Creek MS 63 morgan is juiced....and let me get this straight...

And here again, your images show concisely why the OP Peace dollar looks like improper toning vs. the Battle Creek coin. Why?

 

The color progression on the peace to me is what makes it look unnatural. Seems that the rims are what generally have the darker toning and to see the darker streak go through the center of the coin and lighten to the edge looks odd.

[physics-fan3.14]

That Peace looks totally AT, no question in my mind. The rest of the coins shown in this thread look natural.

[grip]

I also find on AT coins the seperation of colors are to defined.

[kryptonitecomics]

And neither would the TPGs right...(the morgans are graded Battle Creeks)

 

 

 

First...if you think the Morgans look anything like the peace dollar...you should not be buying toned coins at all

 

 

Your all caught up in the actual color and or color progression and you think that allows you to determine AT vs NT and you would be dead wrong. Color progression is only one component, pattern of toning, and how the color looks on the surface (does it look like it's part of the surface or sitting on the surface) are also key components.

 

You Peace dollar isn't a crescent at all...surely you can see that? The toning goes in a straight line in bands...the Morgan's have the typical crescent look, correct color progression and I would imagine in hand the color looks to be a part of the surface and does not disrupt the under lying luster.

 

The Peace dollar has color that looks painted on as well as a toning pattern that does not look correct. Then you go and compare the Peace dollar against a juiced photo of a battle creek and seriously say you think they are both AT.

 

Wow...I just have to shake my head as to why you would ever buy a toned coin as your logic and assumptions are simply wrong. Folks try to make it much more difficult to determine AT from NT when in reality.....for 95% of coins its a pretty simple process whereby coins are clearly AT or cleary NT....the other 5% are the coins that could go either way in the MA category.

[TonerGuy]

I dont think the pics mumu has posted are necessary indicative or illustrative of the point of his argument...

 

I think this is his point... If I am wrong my apologies to mumu...

 

There is almost a general acceptance that all toned Morgans in NGC or PCGS plastic to be NT while there is a general disbelief that any toned Peace $ in NGC or PCGS plastic is NT.

 

I tend to agree with his position.

 

I always wonder why those think that if a doctor can AT a coin well enough to get it into a slab why would he focus on Peace $... Especially when 1) they dont command the same toning premiums as toned Morgans and 2) NGC and PCGS are much more strict on the MA of toned Peace $.

 

Wild colors are given on Morgans while wild colors on a Peace = artificial and a body bag.

 

If I were a coin doctor I would focus on Morgans and ASEs. They seem to bring the best return on investment (and time). And if I were good with clad coinage, probably Ikes as well.

 

and for BLive - some Peace $ do tone in a fashion similar to Morgans. There are NT coins with vibrant neon toning on them. Although very rare they do exist. There are also textile toned Peace, album toned, envelope toned, even crescent toned Peace $ and EOR toned Peace $. Though those are not usually as vibrant as their Morgan counterparts though.