These exact colors on a morgan would go unquestioned

[Coindude]

MuMu, first of all, the Peace "crescent" isn't a crescent at all. It's pretty much straight. Plus there's an unnatural gold appearance in the hair. It just looks freaky to me.

 

I too have stated in that past that some of the great Morgan toners out there have been enhanced in someway or another, either by putting them in albums that will make them tone quicker or harder I guess you could say, or placed into mint bags that make the toning more intense. But who cares right? They are market acceptable after all and your Peace is not, at least not in my humble opinion.

[kryptonitecomics]

There is almost a general acceptance that all toned Morgans in NGC or PCGS plastic to be NT while there is a general disbelief that any toned Peace $ in NGC or PCGS plastic is NT.

 

 

 

I have never heard anyone say this nor would I agree with this statement as every coin has to be evaluated on it's own merits. Years ago David Hall posted on the PCGS forums that he thought all rainbow toned Peace dollars were AT and then folks crawled out of the wood work to piggy back off of that sentiment and create there own statements that are not attributed to anyone in particular and for me hold absolutely no value. I also think David's comments in that thread so many years ago were some of the dumbest he has ever posted because in that same thread someone posted a wild Rainbow toned Peace dollar and he said it looked NT which went completely against what he had just stated.

[jom]

I can't agree with Mumu on this one. The OP Peace does not have the "elevation chromatic" or whatever it's called. The Morgans do.

 

jom

[Kurtdog]

Just to be clear in what Im saying. I think the Peace dollar and the Battle Creek morgan i cropped next to it are AT

So let me get this straight, you believe the Battle Creek coins to be AT?

Ill state it like this, if a coin doctor can do that to a Peace dollar, he can do it to a Morgan.

I think you just reached the first plateau.

[coinman_23885]

Dont get me wrong. I think it is 100% AT...but on a morgan it would be your typical crescent toner.

 

I don't think anyone, at least anyone who knows what they are doing, would in any mistake the toning as natural on a Morgan Dollar.

[coinman_23885]

And neither would the TPGs right...(the morgans are graded Battle Creeks)

 

 

First...if you think the Morgans look anything like the peace dollar...you should not be buying toned coins at all

 

 

Your all caught up in the actual color and or color progression and you think that allows you to determine AT vs NT and you would be dead wrong. Color progression is only one component, pattern of toning, and how the color looks on the surface (does it look like it's part of the surface or sitting on the surface) are also key components.

 

You Peace dollar isn't a crescent at all...surely you can see that? The toning goes in a straight line in bands...the Morgan's have the typical crescent look, correct color progression and I would imagine in hand the color looks to be a part of the surface and does not disrupt the under lying luster.

 

The Peace dollar has color that looks painted on as well as a toning pattern that does not look correct. Then you go and compare the Peace dollar against a juiced photo of a battle creek and seriously say you think they are both AT.

 

Wow...I just have to shake my head as to why you would ever buy a toned coin as your logic and assumptions are simply wrong. Folks try to make it much more difficult to determine AT from NT when in reality.....for 95% of coins its a pretty simple process whereby coins are clearly AT or cleary NT....the other 5% are the coins that could go either way in the MA category.

 

This. Moreover, to emphasize, the coins you posted do not look like the Peace Dollar in the original post.

[TonerGuy]

There is almost a general acceptance that all toned Morgans in NGC or PCGS plastic to be NT while there is a general disbelief that any toned Peace $ in NGC or PCGS plastic is NT.

 

 

 

I have never heard anyone say this nor would I agree with this statement as every coin has to be evaluated on it's own merits. Years ago David Hall posted on the PCGS forums that he thought all rainbow toned Peace dollars were AT and then folks crawled out of the wood work to piggy back off of that sentiment and create there own statements that are not attributed to anyone in particular and for me hold absolutely no value. I also think David's comments in that thread so many years ago were some of the dumbest he has ever posted because in that same thread someone posted a wild Rainbow toned Peace dollar and he said it looked NT which went completely against what he had just stated.

 

I never said anyone stated that. I stated that.

 

Please find me discussion threads on this forum or ATS wherein an NGC/PCGS slabbed Morgan has been posted and there is a debate as to whether the toning is AT vs. NT.

 

You know as well as I do if there are such discussions they are rare while discussions about toned Peace $ that are NGC/PCGS slabbed invoked that debate on a much more frequent basis.

 

I am not a Morgan guy. They are certainly are pretty but I have never been into collecting them. But to think that they arent any NGC/PCGS slabbed AT'd Morgans is myopic. Of course there is and there are probably more NGC/PCGS AT'd Morgans floating around then AT'd Peace $ just based on the sheer differences in volume in the two population of coins.

 

But no one ever slams someone's Morgan in a PCGS/NGC holder for being AT...

 

And thats why we have to end the NT/AT debate and just go with MA... PCGS and NGC have now its time for collectors and dealers to move on.

[Nutmeg Coin]

I'm very impressed with all the sharp minds and eyes on this thread, and I say that as someone who was actually born in Battle Creek.

 

I prefer subtle colors not brilliant and overt ones and will leave it to the experts to sort out real from A/T.

[kryptonitecomics]

You stated "There is almost a general acceptance that all toned Morgans in NGC or PCGS plastic to be NT while there is a general disbelief that any toned Peace $ in NGC or PCGS plastic is NT"

 

 

and I countered with the fact that I have never heard that said before you and frankly I don't agree with your opinion....would love for other to chime in with their opinions of your opinion

 

 

I have to assume you haven't been posting on coin forums for long as there have been hundreds if not thousands of arguments about PCGS/NGC coins being AT including dozens on the battle creek coins themselves. There are probably 10 or 20 posts about AT morgan's for every one post on Peace dollars...please ask any of the regulars on both forums how many times they have seen them...believe me there is a lot and I should know as I have participated in a good chunk of them defending toned coins.

[mumu]

I dont think the pics mumu has posted are necessary indicative or illustrative of the point of his argument...

 

I think this is his point... If I am wrong my apologies to mumu...

 

There is almost a general acceptance that all toned Morgans in NGC or PCGS plastic to be NT while there is a general disbelief that any toned Peace $ in NGC or PCGS plastic is NT.

 

I tend to agree with his position.

 

I always wonder why those think that if a doctor can AT a coin well enough to get it into a slab why would he focus on Peace $... Especially when 1) they dont command the same toning premiums as toned Morgans and 2) NGC and PCGS are much more strict on the MA of toned Peace $.

 

Wild colors are given on Morgans while wild colors on a Peace = artificial and a body bag.

 

If I were a coin doctor I would focus on Morgans and ASEs. They seem to bring the best return on investment (and time). And if I were good with clad coinage, probably Ikes as well.

 

and for BLive - some Peace $ do tone in a fashion similar to Morgans. There are NT coins with vibrant neon toning on them. Although very rare they do exist. There are also textile toned Peace, album toned, envelope toned, even crescent toned Peace $ and EOR toned Peace $. Though those are not usually as vibrant as their Morgan counterparts though.

 

Yes this is fairly much my point. And it is a little harder in the heat of the moment to find the right coins to compare. And I know its not a crescent but those are colors ive seen on a crescent so that is why I referenced crescent morgans. At the end of the day all I am saying is that Peace dollars are guilty until proven innocent while morgans are innocent until proven guilty. And that is not to defend or argue that Peace dollars should be more widely accepted even when obviously AT like this one, but to point out that morgans are just as doctorable as any other coin. Yet insane wild neons are instantly monsters mooses.

 

Lehigh gets to openly bash my coin as an AT coin. And no one says a peep. No one points out the fact that the color is in fact part of the surface and not sitting on top as is in my example. Instead he is praised as one of hte great toner experts(). I do it to random coins from the net and the witch hunt is in full force.

[kryptonitecomics]

Which coin does he say is AT?

[dimefreak]

Which coin does he say is AT?

 

Stole the words out of my mouth

[mumu]

Which coin does he say is AT?

 

The 21 peace purchased from you.

[kryptonitecomics]

I disagree...feel better?

[mumu]

I disagree...feel better?

 

not sure yet. maybe a little.

[kryptonitecomics]

I honestly wouldn't have sold it if I thought for a second it was AT and to add to that I thought it was one of the most eye appealing Peace dollar I have seen

[mumu]

I honestly wouldn't have sold it if I thought for a second it was AT and to add to that I thought it was one of the most eye appealing Peace dollar I have seen

 

Personally I dont mind the discussion of the coin or any other coin good or bad, I think its a good thing and the point of forums. But he and I have gotten into it before and he ratted me out for rejoining PCGS. So I'm just giving him a hard time for that.

[kryptonitecomics]

The one rule of having an Alt is we don't talk about alts....or was that fight club I get so confused.

 

 

Personally I like Paul a lot and I have never had issues with you so I will leave you guys to feud if you like but just don't let it cloud your judgement or lead you to make assertions that affect your credibility...its simply not worth it in the long run.

 

In this case I think it's safe to simply believe what you want to believe about NT peace dollars and not worry about what everyone else thinks....you simply can't hope to convince everyone all the time and yes there is nothing wrong with differing opinions.

[TonerGuy]

You stated "There is almost a general acceptance that all toned Morgans in NGC or PCGS plastic to be NT while there is a general disbelief that any toned Peace $ in NGC or PCGS plastic is NT"

 

 

and I countered with the fact that I have never heard that said before you and frankly I don't agree with your opinion....would love for other to chime in with their opinions of your opinion

 

 

I have to assume you haven't been posting on coin forums for long as there have been hundreds if not thousands of arguments about PCGS/NGC coins being AT including dozens on the battle creek coins themselves. There are probably 10 or 20 posts about AT morgan's for every one post on Peace dollars...please ask any of the regulars on both forums how many times they have seen them...believe me there is a lot and I should know as I have participated in a good chunk of them defending toned coins.

 

So what would the toned coins specialist say about these two toned Morgans - AT, NT or MA ?

 

 

 

or what about this one ?

 

 

 

[MarkFeld]

They look fine to me, though my guess is that the first image is juiced or otherwise inaccurate.

[dimefreak]

There AT.... But, very very nice and what would you say if I told you I bought the top one?

[physics-fan3.14]

 

 

This has the look of a group of coins that a coin doctor admitted to creating a couple of years ago. On its own, the coin has a lot of characteristics of a naturally toned coin, but he created many with the same look across multiple denominations and eras. If I recall, Shane had a part in outing the guy? The doctor had fairly good success in getting PCGS to slab his creations.

 

The first one looks MA though (but the pictures look tweaked, as Mark says). The colors are a bit suspicious, and I would probably shy away from it, but I'm not as certain as to its dubious origin as I am for the second coin.

[TonerGuy]

Good memory Dime and Physics...

 

I was hoping on a few more responses like Feld's before someone revealed the truth but I think if you didnt know the story behind the pics - most people on this board would have said NT or at least MA...And that I think is mumu's point...

 

If either of those coins were a Peace $ no one would have said anything but AT and how could that coin slip pass the PCGS graders.

 

@Dime - I would say you bought a beautifully toned MA artistic creation.

 

@Physics - those are the actual pics from Shane's thread exposing the coins that I hot linked...

[kryptonitecomics]

I agree that individually most folks including myself would have been fooled by the coins in the PCGS holder and I don't think anyone would disagree that there is at least one doctor who was good enough to get some of his lab creations into holders....there are other hoards involving Nickels and Ikes that also come to mind.

 

I also agree that if I saw those colors on Peace dollars I would automatically say AT and its for the same reason as if I saw that toning on a Walker or a Standing Liberty Quarter.....they simply do not come that way where as we know that Morgans do

[mumu]

they simply do not come that way where as we know that Morgans do

 

But what came first, the chicken(NT) or the egg(AT)?

 

If you take quotes like Hall's Peace dollar quote, and I have heard similar ones about morgans not existing rainbowy in the 60s, then why do they come that way? Because someone made them that way and it was so long ago that now we just think "we know they come that way". Now I know the answer to this is in part that yes there have been events that prove they can happen naturally. I know the battle creek hoard is deemed one of those as well as untouched bank vaults and bags et cetera. But that only makes it easier for really well AT'd coins to swim through, as evident with the above 2 coins just posted. If we(mankind) can make artificial diamonds and emeralds, then Im sure we can make silver tarnish.

 

I am a big fan of toners. And most of the coins I buy are such and my favorite set is the most contreverdial of all the toner series. I hope nothing more than they are all real and natural. I am just opening up this can of worms to learn more about it and in honesty I am trying to smoke out the non-science elements of what is MA, meaning the social constructs that make things allowable, such as cliques and insiders and people with monetary influence et cetera.

[kryptonitecomics]

The reasons peace dollars don't historically come that way is well documented just like the reasons Morgans do is well documented. There really is no mystery here but as I said before...folks want to make it harder than it is to determine AT, NT and MA.

 

Like most things in life...if you study it enough it gets much easier to make the correct assessment and while nobody can be right 100% of the time...I think there are many folks in the know including the TPGs that get it right 95% of the time

[coinman_23885]

Which coin does he say is AT?

 

The 21 peace purchased from you.

 

I don't think it is AT. In fact, I was the direct under bidder on the coin; maybe I'm slightly biased.

 

If the coin is AT, you should cut your losses and sell it to me.

[TonerGuy]

The reasons peace dollars don't historically come that way is well documented

 

Can you clarify what you mean by "that way ?"

[James_OldeTowne]

You stated "There is almost a general acceptance that all toned Morgans in NGC or PCGS plastic to be NT while there is a general disbelief that any toned Peace $ in NGC or PCGS plastic is NT"

 

 

and I countered with the fact that I have never heard that said before you and frankly I don't agree with your opinion....would love for other to chime in with their opinions of your opinion

 

 

I have to assume you haven't been posting on coin forums for long as there have been hundreds if not thousands of arguments about PCGS/NGC coins being AT including dozens on the battle creek coins themselves. There are probably 10 or 20 posts about AT morgan's for every one post on Peace dollars...please ask any of the regulars on both forums how many times they have seen them...believe me there is a lot and I should know as I have participated in a good chunk of them defending toned coins.

 

So what would the toned coins specialist say about these two toned Morgans - AT, NT or MA ?

 

 

 

or what about this one ?

 

Both of those look improperly toned to me, but it's a "look" that many folks enjoy.

[MarkFeld]

You stated "There is almost a general acceptance that all toned Morgans in NGC or PCGS plastic to be NT while there is a general disbelief that any toned Peace $ in NGC or PCGS plastic is NT"

 

 

and I countered with the fact that I have never heard that said before you and frankly I don't agree with your opinion....would love for other to chime in with their opinions of your opinion

 

 

I have to assume you haven't been posting on coin forums for long as there have been hundreds if not thousands of arguments about PCGS/NGC coins being AT including dozens on the battle creek coins themselves. There are probably 10 or 20 posts about AT morgan's for every one post on Peace dollars...please ask any of the regulars on both forums how many times they have seen them...believe me there is a lot and I should know as I have participated in a good chunk of them defending toned coins.

 

So what would the toned coins specialist say about these two toned Morgans - AT, NT or MA

 

 

or what about this one ?

 

Both of those look improperly toned to me, but it's a "look" that many folks enjoy.

 

James, how do you define "improperly toned"? Thanks.