These exact colors on a morgan would go unquestioned

[lehigh96]

I don't think the 1921 is AT. I have seen other Peace dollars tone this way. In fact, many of the monster Peace dollars I have seen that I believe to be natural developed this lilac and blue hue.

 

I agree and that's why I posed the question that I did to the others. Like you, I have seen several Peace Dollars with less significant amounts of toning that contain shades of purple, blue, and even reds. The patterns that I have seen on these coins is consistent with normal storage methods (album toning, etc.), and the amount of toning on some is insignificant enough that I doubt a doctor would have stopped at the periphery. The point of all of this is to illustrate that I have seen these and similar colors to lesser extents on other coins, which I believe many would find more convincing and are NT. If these colors can develop naturally, then it is quite possible that this coin developed from similar methods. The fact that the amount of toning present is unusual does not mean that it is AT per se.

 

Also, Paul, can you manage to find a larger image of this coin? I was thinking more that the toning agents resulted from gas deposition rather than an electric toning.

 

It is Mumu's coin, I am sure he can provide a bigger photo. What I would like to see is the photos you guys have of other Peace Dollars that are completely toned in lilac or lavender. That is the only one I have ever seen. I would agree that most AT coins are gassed, but the electrode theory for this coin is based on those spots on the neck. If they are not electrode contact points, what are they?

[coinman_23885]

I don't think the 1921 is AT. I have seen other Peace dollars tone this way. In fact, many of the monster Peace dollars I have seen that I believe to be natural developed this lilac and blue hue.

 

I agree and that's why I posed the question that I did to the others. Like you, I have seen several Peace Dollars with less significant amounts of toning that contain shades of purple, blue, and even reds. The patterns that I have seen on these coins is consistent with normal storage methods (album toning, etc.), and the amount of toning on some is insignificant enough that I doubt a doctor would have stopped at the periphery. The point of all of this is to illustrate that I have seen these and similar colors to lesser extents on other coins, which I believe many would find more convincing and are NT. If these colors can develop naturally, then it is quite possible that this coin developed from similar methods. The fact that the amount of toning present is unusual does not mean that it is AT per se.

 

Also, Paul, can you manage to find a larger image of this coin? I was thinking more that the toning agents resulted from gas deposition rather than an electric toning.

 

It is Mumu's coin, I am sure he can provide a bigger photo. What I would like to see is the photos you guys have of other Peace Dollars that are completely toned in lilac or lavender. That is the only one I have ever seen. I would agree that most AT coins are gassed, but the electrode theory for this coin is based on those spots on the neck. If they are not electrode contact points, what are they?

 

To clarify I never said that I have seen lavender, purple, or lilac toning that encompassed an ENTIRE side of a coin before. I only stated that I have seen coins with a touch of these colors (or similar colors) at the periphery, or occasionally as splotches, also usually toward the rims of the coin. The point of my post was that if these colors do exist on other coins, then it is possible under the right conditions for the toning to envelope larger portions of the coin. And for the record, like you, Mumu's is the only coin that I have seen with that much toning with the said colors. The fact that it is rare, does not in and of itself mean that it is AT.

 

I will admit that the spots do bother me, but the pattern seemed more reminiscent of gas deposition to me. I wanted the blow-ups to examine the color progression around the devices a bit more.

[Coindude]

If they are not electrode contact points, what are they?

It looks like you've already made up your mind what those spots are, I don't think much will change what you're thinking on this one. I do have to ask a question of you, have you seen the coin in hand? If so, did you examine those marks closely? Because if those points were contacted by an electrode then there would be pitting at those points. So, if there was no pitting then I do not believe those were electrode contact points.

[TonerGuy]

Attractive toning on 21 Peace $ is rare. I have only personally seen less than 5 in more than 10+ yrs studying/researching them.

 

The one that I handled had rose/pinks/lavendars that covered both sides of the coin. Rose/pink/lavendar is fairly common on 27-Ps though.

 

I cannot tell how juiced mumu's photos are and I would like to see the coin in hand before I made a call as to NT/AT but it looks MA to me.

[coinman_23885]

Attractive toning on 21 Peace $ is rare. I have only personally seen less than 5 in more than 10+ yrs studying/researching them.

 

The one that I handled had rose/pinks/lavendars that covered both sides of the coin. Rose/pink/lavendar is fairly common on 27-Ps though.

 

I cannot tell how juiced mumu's photos are and I would like to see the coin in hand before I made a call as to NT/AT but it looks MA to me.

 

I know for a fact that those images were done by Shane (Kryptonitecomics). They are not juiced. His photography is on spot. I have purchased dozens of coins from him through the last couple of years, and have never had one that looked juiced and in each case the coin looked like the picture.

[kryptonitecomics]

I agree...no juicing as you can see by the holder...it's perfectly white with correct label colors and I didn't use the whole halo trick that someone use on Ebay

 

That's what the coin looks like in hand ...and I don't remember the spots being that noticeable at all in hand which is sometimes the case when you see something in an image and it's nearly invisible in hand...

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[newprepper]

vampire bite, my kids have all the twilight movies, so I know what I'm talking about

 

I hope they don't force you to watch those movies as well. I've seen, maybe, 15-20 min. of those movies and I'm pretty sure I'd cut my throat if I had to watch anymore.

 

jom

 

My youngest is 12, my oldest 21, so when I start watching what they watch, you can call my masculinity into question, haha

[coinman_23885]

My photography sucks, so I am limited in what I can post. Needless to say the following coins are not the ones that I was referencing, but here are some Peace Dollar toners in top tier TPG plastic with purples, blues, and lilacs. I have seen other coins, but the ones I had seen and was referencing were much more subtle. Any way here goes:

 

 

http://www.ebay.com/itm/AWESOME-1922-P-PCGS-MS63-PEACE-RAINBOW-TONED-/190803593924?pt=Coins_US_Individual&hash=item2c6cc7cac4

 

Here is another - yes I know that the color progression and pattern are different, but there are some purples and blues on this one:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/TONED-PCGS-1923-PEACE-DOLLAR-FROSTY-HIGH-LUSTER-THAT-MAKE-COLOR-SPARKLE-/180978447469?pt=Coins_US_Individual&hash=item2a2327f46d

 

 

[kryptonitecomics]

and not to say this coin is a twin but I found a lot of similarities to the toning on another Peace dollar I sold in an old rattler...which again tells me there is a good chance that there are other coins out there with similar toning...

 

 

 

 

 

[Eric Hazen]

So you can't tell from my pictures but this is actually a coin with a lot of pink running through it; looks 100% natural to me.

 

 

[coinman_23885]

What I would like to see is the photos you guys have of other Peace Dollars that are completely toned in lilac or lavender. That is the only one I have ever seen.

 

What is your opinion of the ex-Duckor 1923-S PCGS M65 Peace Dollar that sold recently? I know it is not lavender, but I hope that it illustrates a point.

 

Edited to add: The reason I think this coin is NT is the same reason that I think your rainbow toned St. Gauden's Double Eagle is NT. While I have never seen one with the same exact appearance as your Double Eagle, I had seen the same colors (and for your coin, the progression as well) on other coins, albeit the toning was very subtle and much less drastic. Similarly, while I have never seen a coin as dramatic as Mumu's, I have seen the same colors in a much subtler and less extreme way.

[MarkFeld]

I don't think the 1921 is AT. I have seen other Peace dollars tone this way. In fact, many of the monster Peace dollars I have seen that I believe to be natural developed this lilac and blue hue.

 

I agree and that's why I posed the question that I did to the others. Like you, I have seen several Peace Dollars with less significant amounts of toning that contain shades of purple, blue, and even reds. The patterns that I have seen on these coins is consistent with normal storage methods (album toning, etc.), and the amount of toning on some is insignificant enough that I doubt a doctor would have stopped at the periphery. The point of all of this is to illustrate that I have seen these and similar colors to lesser extents on other coins, which I believe many would find more convincing and are NT. If these colors can develop naturally, then it is quite possible that this coin developed from similar methods. The fact that the amount of toning present is unusual does not mean that it is AT per se.

 

Also, Paul, can you manage to find a larger image of this coin? I was thinking more that the toning agents resulted from gas deposition rather than an electric toning.

 

It is Mumu's coin, I am sure he can provide a bigger photo. What I would like to see is the photos you guys have of other Peace Dollars that are completely toned in lilac or lavender. That is the only one I have ever seen. I would agree that most AT coins are gassed, but the electrode theory for this coin is based on those spots on the neck. If they are not electrode contact points, what are they?

 

They look like toning stains to me.

[mumu]

I don't think the 1921 is AT. I have seen other Peace dollars tone this way. In fact, many of the monster Peace dollars I have seen that I believe to be natural developed this lilac and blue hue.

 

I agree and that's why I posed the question that I did to the others. Like you, I have seen several Peace Dollars with less significant amounts of toning that contain shades of purple, blue, and even reds. The patterns that I have seen on these coins is consistent with normal storage methods (album toning, etc.), and the amount of toning on some is insignificant enough that I doubt a doctor would have stopped at the periphery. The point of all of this is to illustrate that I have seen these and similar colors to lesser extents on other coins, which I believe many would find more convincing and are NT. If these colors can develop naturally, then it is quite possible that this coin developed from similar methods. The fact that the amount of toning present is unusual does not mean that it is AT per se.

 

Also, Paul, can you manage to find a larger image of this coin? I was thinking more that the toning agents resulted from gas deposition rather than an electric toning.

 

It is Mumu's coin, I am sure he can provide a bigger photo. What I would like to see is the photos you guys have of other Peace Dollars that are completely toned in lilac or lavender. That is the only one I have ever seen. I would agree that most AT coins are gassed, but the electrode theory for this coin is based on those spots on the neck. If they are not electrode contact points, what are they?

 

They look like toning stains to me.

 

There are 2-3 other such circular spots on the coin and they are not next to each other. One is near the top and one bottom. I have another coin with similar little round spots in different colors and sizes and they dont come in pairs but look the same. I cannot say for sure what toned this coin but I did ask around before bidding what the thoughts were of some more experienced collectors than I. Several said lavender is common to tissue storage which was often seen.

 

Here is another Peace I have with some purple. Its in an OGH and photographed by Todd Blucc:

 

 

[mumu]

Here on my 24 red toner theres is a round spot very similar to the 21 right in front of Liberty's lower lip. Picture also by Todd:

 

[mumu]

Here's one more. Its hard to see in this pic, also by Todd, but just below the lowest lock of hair below the ear and behind the jaw are 2 side by side circular spots.

 

 

 

Now personally IMO uniqueness, which I think all 4 coins above and many others posted goes against coin doctoring moreso then there being 50 coins with near identical toning. I cant imagine a CD who would master such a craft to only score on 1 coin?

 

 

[mumu]

Ok 1 more coin, pic by Todd. This one is raw and of all the coins I posted this is the only one that I have my doubts about possibly being AT. It's long overdue to be submitted because I dont have enough other raw coins to send in with it but it will be going in sometime this year. Any case it also has a small round spot by the Y in liberty.

 

[mumu]

Heres a Peace $ I sold to Larry Shapiro a few years ago with a lot of pink and lavander toning. The reverse also has th same orange halo toning that the 21 Obverse has in the Tiara.

Pictures are old ebay pics. Very accurate as in non juiced done by a seller who is a pro non coin photographer named jarvismphoto on ebay. Its a maller pic and all I have but you can also see round spots directly behind Liberty about half way down from the Y towards Trvst

s

 

 

[James_OldeTowne]

Heres a Peace $ I sold to Larry Shapiro a few years ago with a lot of pink and lavander toning. The reverse also has th same orange halo toning that the 21 Obverse has in the Tiara.

Pictures are old ebay pics. Very accurate as in non juiced done by a seller who is a pro non coin photographer named jarvismphoto on ebay. Its a maller pic and all I have but you can also see round spots directly behind Liberty about half way down from the Y towards Trvst

s

This toning looks very typical of a silver dollar -- Morgan OR Peace -- stored in a Kraft paper envelope for many years. I know this, because I own several of each. And incidentally, the same Kraft paper toning happens on silver halves, quarters and dimes.

[Kurtdog]

This toning looks very typical of a silver dollar -- Morgan OR Peace -- stored in a Kraft paper envelope for many years. I know this, because I own several of each. And incidentally, the same Kraft paper toning happens on silver halves, quarters and dimes.

Oh so the coin doctor put it into one of those envelopes to tone it and you're getting "typical" out of that. Are you getting "natural" out of it? That's all I want to know. If you're not, I don't like it.

[lehigh96]

If they are not electrode contact points, what are they?

It looks like you've already made up your mind what those spots are, I don't think much will change what you're thinking on this one. I do have to ask a question of you, have you seen the coin in hand? If so, did you examine those marks closely? Because if those points were contacted by an electrode then there would be pitting at those points. So, if there was no pitting then I do not believe those were electrode contact points.

 

My mind is not made up, but that is my logical conclusion. Once someone provides an equally logical alternative reason for how those spots formed, I will consider it. Mark thinks they are just toning stains, then okay I will accept that as an alternative. Still, the color in combination with those spots makes me very suspicious about the originality of the toning and I would consider it questionable.

 

Having said that, you guys are making way too big a deal out of this. The coin resides in NGC plastic and is gorgeous. It makes absolutely no difference if I think the toning is questionable or not.

[TonerGuy]

Ok 1 more coin, pic by Todd. This one is raw and of all the coins I posted this is the only one that I have my doubts about possibly being AT. It's long overdue to be submitted because I dont have enough other raw coins to send in with it but it will be going in sometime this year. Any case it also has a small round spot by the Y in liberty.

 

 

Got a pic of the reverse ?

 

And yes its AT you should sell it to me... no need to waste your money on grading fees when NGC is only going to BB it. You dont want this coin polluting your collection of NT slabbed Peace $...

[Kurtdog]

This is beginning to read like a criminal investigation. Are these coins acceptable to the TPGs based on their utterly arbitrary standards? That's all we're really asking. If they are, we can bid 100X on them. If they aren't, we can't.

[lehigh96]

What I would like to see is the photos you guys have of other Peace Dollars that are completely toned in lilac or lavender. That is the only one I have ever seen.

 

What is your opinion of the ex-Duckor 1923-S PCGS M65 Peace Dollar that sold recently? I know it is not lavender, but I hope that it illustrates a point.

 

Edited to add: The reason I think this coin is NT is the same reason that I think your rainbow toned St. Gauden's Double Eagle is NT. While I have never seen one with the same exact appearance as your Double Eagle, I had seen the same colors (and for your coin, the progression as well) on other coins, albeit the toning was very subtle and much less drastic. Similarly, while I have never seen a coin as dramatic as Mumu's, I have seen the same colors in a much subtler and less extreme way.

 

My opinion is that the photo was juiced and that the coin would look much more like the Heritage photo of the coin.

 

 

There is nothing about the Heritage photo that would lead me to believe that the coin has been artificially toned. Furthermore, I am not sure what point you believe that coin is illustrating.

 

To an extent, I agree with you that a rare toning pattern/color scheme is not an automatic indictment of originality of the toning. The rainbow toned Saints are extremely rare and I have only ever seen a handful with vibrant rainbow toning. And while I and some others believe that rainbow toned Saints are NT coins resulting from improper alloy mixing, you must understand that there are many very experienced Saint collectors who believe that rainbow toned Saints are absolutely AT. So using those coins to bolster the possibility that Mumu's 1921 Peace is NT is not a great idea IMO.

 

However, you seem to have a very optimistic view of toning. If you see some hints of color on another example then it becomes possible (therefore likely) that nature could create a more extreme example. I do not share that philosophy. I evaluate toning based on common color schemes and toning patterns for the series. The more unusual the toning, the more it's originality should be scrutinized. And it is my opinion that Mumu's 1921 is questionably toned. Nobody has posted anything in this thread that has made be consider changing my mind.

 

[MarkFeld]

What I would like to see is the photos you guys have of other Peace Dollars that are completely toned in lilac or lavender. That is the only one I have ever seen.

 

What is your opinion of the ex-Duckor 1923-S PCGS M65 Peace Dollar that sold recently? I know it is not lavender, but I hope that it illustrates a point.

 

Edited to add: The reason I think this coin is NT is the same reason that I think your rainbow toned St. Gauden's Double Eagle is NT. While I have never seen one with the same exact appearance as your Double Eagle, I had seen the same colors (and for your coin, the progression as well) on other coins, albeit the toning was very subtle and much less drastic. Similarly, while I have never seen a coin as dramatic as Mumu's, I have seen the same colors in a much subtler and less extreme way.

 

I have been told and read that the 23-S is not ex-Duckor.

[dimefreak]

So wait.... Its not one of the last coins he decided to hold onto?

[RWB]

"Unquestioned" or "unanswered?"

[Kurtdog]

So wait.... Its not one of the last coins he decided to hold onto?

Brilliant deduction.

[mumu]

So wait.... Its not one of the last coins he decided to hold onto?

Brilliant deduction.

 

Unless it is possible to "hold on" to someone elses coin. Ive been known to hold on to someone's else woman. They say a good coin is like a good woman.

[MarkFeld]

What I would like to see is the photos you guys have of other Peace Dollars that are completely toned in lilac or lavender. That is the only one I have ever seen.

 

What is your opinion of the ex-Duckor 1923-S PCGS M65 Peace Dollar that sold recently? I know it is not lavender, but I hope that it illustrates a point.

 

Edited to add: The reason I think this coin is NT is the same reason that I think your rainbow toned St. Gauden's Double Eagle is NT. While I have never seen one with the same exact appearance as your Double Eagle, I had seen the same colors (and for your coin, the progression as well) on other coins, albeit the toning was very subtle and much less drastic. Similarly, while I have never seen a coin as dramatic as Mumu's, I have seen the same colors in a much subtler and less extreme way.

 

My opinion is that the photo was juiced and that the coin would look much more like the Heritage photo of the coin.

 

 

There is nothing about the Heritage photo that would lead me to believe that the coin has been artificially toned. Furthermore, I am not sure what point you believe that coin is illustrating.

 

To an extent, I agree with you that a rare toning pattern/color scheme is not an automatic indictment of originality of the toning. The rainbow toned Saints are extremely rare and I have only ever seen a handful with vibrant rainbow toning. And while I and some others believe that rainbow toned Saints are NT coins resulting from improper alloy mixing, you must understand that there are many very experienced Saint collectors who believe that rainbow toned Saints are absolutely AT. So using those coins to bolster the possibility that Mumu's 1921 Peace is NT is not a great idea IMO.

 

However, you seem to have a very optimistic view of toning. If you see some hints of color on another example then it becomes possible (therefore likely) that nature could create a more extreme example. I do not share that philosophy. I evaluate toning based on common color schemes and toning patterns for the series. The more unusual the toning, the more it's originality should be scrutinized. And it is my opinion that Mumu's 1921 is questionably toned. Nobody has posted anything in this thread that has made be consider changing my mind.

 

Having seen the coin in hand, I would say that the coin is as (or even more) colorful and vibrant as it is in the image. Hence, the image doe snot look "juiced".

[Kurtdog]

So wait.... Its not one of the last coins he decided to hold onto?

Brilliant deduction.

Unless it is possible to "hold on" to someone elses coin. Ive been known to hold on to someone's else woman. They say a good coin is like a good woman.

If you think you're going to get any argument from me on that one, fugheddaboudit!