WoodenJefferson

Pros & cons on this subject, if your buying, they are priced too high, if your selling, the price is just about right.
 
To bean or not to bean, that is the question?

In my mind, I’m trying to analyze how a gold coin made in the 1900’s, bagged and stored in a vault/vaults for 60 years can be graded out as MS-69, or even grade out at MS-68 (the key word here is “bagged“ and maybe even re-bagged…as in tumbling, scraping, rubbing, clinking, digging and chinking)
 
Seems to me the handling alone would render even the best of the best to no more than a 66.

In my mind, I’m trying to analyze how a gold coin made in the 1900’s, bagged and stored in a vault/vaults for 60 years can be graded out as MS-69, or even grade out at MS-68 (the key word here is “bagged“ and maybe even re-bagged…as in tumbling, scraping, rubbing, clinking, digging and chinking)
 
Seems to me the handling alone would render even the best of the best to no more than a 66.

On page 209 it gives the definition for "numismatics" take a look at the very next word!

Federal Reserve Bank of New York Building
First used in 1924, the Federal Reserve Bank of New York took six years to build

Federal Reserve Bank of New York Entrance
The entrance to the Federal Reserve Bank of New York is located at 33 Liberty St

Entry to the Gold Vault
This ten-foot passageway is cut through a 90-ton steel cylinder

Gold Bars in the Gold Vault of the Federal Reserve Bank of New York
The gold vault at the Federal Reserve Bank of New York is built directly on Manhattan's bedrock to be able to support the enormous weight of the gold.
 
 

Gold Bars are held in 122 compartments in the main and auxillary vaults
Each gold bar weighs about 27.4 pounds and is worth about $400,000
 
The Federal Reserve Bank of New York maintains a vault that lies 86 feet below sea level, resting on Manhattan bedrock. By 1927, the vault contained ten percent of the world's official gold reserves. Currently, it is reputedly the largest gold repository in the world (though this cannot be confirmed as Swiss Banks do not report their gold stocks) and holds approx 5,000 metric tons of gold bullion ($160 billion as of March, 2008), more than Fort Knox. The gold is owned by many foreign nations, central banks and international organizations. The Federal Reserve Bank does not own the gold but serves as guardian of the precious metal, which it "protects" at no charge as a gesture of good will to other nations. Free tours of the vault are available to the public.
 
note: Members of three separate bank departments are required to enter the vaults and to move gold bars.
 
 

Since the top grading services recognize the ‘65, ‘66 & ‘67 Special Mint Set series as MS when considering numerical grades, why aren’t the steps on these SMS Jefferson’s taken into consideration for the FS (Full Step) designation also?
 
Could it be that they just don’t exist, those with full steps that is, or is there another reason?
 

It may not have been dumb, but planning was not exactly our forte'
 
In 1955 my Bother and I along with a neighborhood friend of ours buried a "time capsule" in our homestead backyard. We assembled a cent, nickel, dime and believe it or not, a whole quarter to bury. (Mind you, a quarter at that time could buy 25 pieces of candy or 5 packs of baseball cards, so in our eyes, this was a huge investment) The empty Kraft mayonnaise jar was cleaned, a note stating our intentions was drafted on 3 line paper with a sharpened #2 pencil. We all signed it and sealed the contents into the jar. We had my Mom melt some paraffin wax used for canning and had her turn the jar upside down and dip the metal lid a few times.
 
Looking around for a suitable spot, we selected an area in the backyard just like a pirate would go through. 10 kid paces from the maple tree, by 10 kid paces from the corner of the one car garage. Bingo, X marks the spot. We dug down about 2' and buried the clinking jar with visions of digging the time capsule up years later.
 
Summers past, we all graduated from grade school and then on to high school where girls finally replaced pirate expeditions and tree climbing.
 
It wasn't until years later while looking up through the canopy of the night time jungle that it came to mind about the time capsule. I made a mental note that once I returned to the States that I would assemble the gang and we would proceed to resurrect the once buried treasure.
 
When I finally got back to my childhood home, I immediate realized there had been some changes. The one car garage had been torn down and a new 2 car garage on a concrete slab had been erected. The maple tree was also gone, either to make way for the garage or it had died and was cut down. I asked my Dad about all the changes while I was gone and he concurred about the maple tree being cut down so the roots would not crack and heave the new concrete slab.
 
Disappointment quickly set in and I asked him about the construction of the slab. He said the contractors only dug below the frost line (less than 14") laid down sand, compacted and then poured the concrete into the rebar form. I knew the capsule had not been disturbed by erecting the garage, but without the tree, there was no way of determining the exact location. I even went back years later with a metal detector and checked the general area, but only found an old trash burning pit.
 
To this day, there are 4 coins from 1955 buried somewhere in my parents backyard. I often wondered about the cent...would it survive...did we bury a doubled die variety? Would the other coins tone due to being confined with a sheet of that old hand writing paper? I guess I’ll never find out, perhaps in the next millennia, someone dressed in a “finders suit” will come across some 200 year old coins buried in a unidentified substance container.
 

Since the top grading services recognize the ‘65, ‘66 & ‘67 Special Mint Set series as MS when considering numerical grades, why aren’t the steps on these SMS Jefferson’s taken into consideration for the FS (Full Step) designation also?
 
Could it be that they just don’t exist, those with full steps that is, or is there another reason?
 

I fully understand the “proof” part in the theory but proof coinage is struck twice, SMS coins were only struck once, albeit on a higher tonnage press.
 
Proof coins were struck with highly polished dies, SMS coins were struck with polished dies but they were not changed out with the same frequency as the proof dies.
 
Proof coins were struck on polished planchets, the SMS coins were struck on specially burnished planchets, just one step up from traditional business struck coins.
 
Proof coins were individually handled, and although Eva Adams the then Mint Director said the coins would be handled the same, Rick Tomaska says they were not. He says quantities were dumped into bins. "Individual handling" might have involved nothing more than the sorting of coins into compartments in packaging.
 
Adams promised in her 1966 report: "They will have a higher relief than regular coins and be better in appearance than any of the regular uncirculated sets heretofore issued."
 
I have seen many nice coins come out of SMS but as far as the Jefferson nickels that have well defined steps, well, that’s a whole other story.
 
Not arguing, just pointing out various differences.
 
 

Coin Slabbing of the Future
 
In the future, there will be only one combined grading service, PNGCS. This conglomerate will operate as one entity for the entire hobby of Numismatics. As of 07/01/2021 no other agency will be allowed to start up or combine with the Mother Ship after this cut-off date.
 
In addition to the regular grading skills, all future Graders will have E.S.P. capabilities . While they are holding the coin, the grader will see flashes of who actually handled that particular coin in the past. These extra sense abilities will immediately inform the grader if a coin is a counterfeit, has been doctored, or altered in any way and by WHOM!
 
Ports installed into the graders cerebellum will allow downloads of images so further prosecution can be executed.
 
The cases will be made of clear diamond silica carbonate, fused together with .05 mega-watt lasers in a argon-xenon gas matrix vacuum. On the Moh’s harness scale, this new slab material is equivalent to a natural occurring corundum (ruby) impervious to the most of common means of entry.
 
Before sealing the coin into the slab, a programmable digital electronic microprocessor was imbedded in the carbonate, pre-set to a determined frequency. This microprocessor will emit a frequency signal of between 900-1600 megahertz, the same as most modern day cell phones, so in essence, the slab is constantly calling up the Grading Service and asking a verifier for authenticity.
 
If the verifier determines that the slab or the coin contained is not the original as issued, the verifier will send out a mobile Tracking Goon Squad to collect the errant coin slab.
 
This Squad has at it’s disposal, all the means necessary to retrieve the grading services proxy property. Think of men dressed in all black, head gear, batons, boots, guns, battering rams...ahh kinda like present day SWAT Teams going in after a known felon. "We have a no-knock warrant from PNGCS!" BOOM!
 
Profiteers who wish to emulate the grading services will have a tough time, as the next generation f-bay and other auction venues will install screening devices to prohibit falsified/generic coin slabs.
 
Raw coin dealers will proliferate in the alleys and back rooms of abandoned pool halls and other dark seedy places. These RawC’s as they will become to be known, will still grace the outlawed Dansco albums that so many collectors now hide from the authorities.
 
The future is great…or is it?

Coin Slabbing of the Future
 
In the future, there will be only one combined grading service, PNGCS. This conglomerate will operate as one entity for the entire hobby of Numismatics. As of 07/01/2021 no other agency will be allowed to start up or combine with the Mother Ship after this cut-off date.
 
In addition to the regular grading skills, all future Graders will have E.S.P. capabilities . While they are holding the coin, the grader will see flashes of who actually handled that particular coin in the past. These extra sense abilities will immediately inform the grader if a coin is a counterfeit, has been doctored, or altered in any way and by WHOM!
 
Ports installed into the graders cerebellum will allow downloads of images so further prosecution can be executed.
 
The cases will be made of clear diamond silica carbonate, fused together with .05 mega-watt lasers in a argon-xenon gas matrix vacuum. On the Moh’s harness scale, this new slab material is equivalent to a natural occurring corundum (ruby) impervious to the most of common means of entry.
 
Before sealing the coin into the slab, a programmable digital electronic microprocessor was imbedded in the carbonate, pre-set to a determined frequency. This microprocessor will emit a frequency signal of between 900-1600 megahertz, the same as most modern day cell phones, so in essence, the slab is constantly calling up the Grading Service and asking a verifier for authenticity.
 
If the verifier determines that the slab or the coin contained is not the original as issued, the verifier will send out a mobile Tracking Goon Squad to collect the errant coin slab.
 
This Squad has at it’s disposal, all the means necessary to retrieve the grading services proxy property. Think of men dressed in all black, head gear, batons, boots, guns, battering rams...ahh kinda like present day SWAT Teams going in after a known felon. "We have a no-knock warrant from PNGCS!" BOOM!
 
Profiteers who wish to emulate the grading services will have a tough time, as the next generation f-bay and other auction venues will install screening devices to prohibit falsified/generic coin slabs.
 
Raw coin dealers will proliferate in the alleys and back rooms of abandoned pool halls and other dark seedy places. These RawC’s as they will become to be known, will still grace the outlawed Dansco albums that so many collectors now hide from the authorities.
 
The future is great…or is it?

If you 'think' you have a small date Denver minted coin, it would be easy to determine, after all, how do you think the 70 Philly & Frisco small dates were found? But, and that's a big but, after 48 years I'm certain they would have been found already, but stranger things have happened like the 1919 doubled die dime that was just recently discovered.

Pros & cons on this subject, if your buying, they are priced too high, if your selling, the price is just about right.
 
To bean or not to bean, that is the question?

Pros & cons on this subject, if your buying, they are priced too high, if your selling, the price is just about right.
 
To bean or not to bean, that is the question?

CAG preserves the provenance of collectibles tied to prominent people, such as the first person to walk on the moon. Click Here to Read More

You know what WJ? I used a pc of tape and I suppose the 7's are just the teensiest bit lower than the other 3 digits, although VERY close, but a cent coin isn't gigantic so a teensy bit can be substantial. I appreciate your reference to the 1919 Dime. Casman also referenced it a while back and today you have reinvigorated my search for the unknown error as he did then. You see, while I've only been looking at coins for a few months, I have yet to come across a single error. Not one. Even when I thought I had they turned out to be different varieties. While everyone around me is posting, posting, posting all their wonderful coins,  I have squat. But Cas also said that I have an great eye, so between the 2 of you you've convinced me to stick around for a bit longer. So I shall continue to ruin my sight and read, read, read and study some more and my first valuable coin is gonna be a doozy.

You are incorrect about the $600 grading fee...that fee is charged for known ultra rarities which you do not know you have yet, in fact can never be, because I do not think it is in the same circle as say a 1913 Liberty nickel or even a 1804 silver dollar.
 
I say just for the record, that I think most of this story is BS, unless you have definite proof, but til then I remain skeptical.
 
Stranger things have happened, but when they do, the people claiming offer proof, I have seen none.
 
I do not like my leg pulled

,,,but there are some 'experts' here....you need to listen and learn and it will save you those grading fees that don't work out so well.
With good images, 1970-D small dates are pretty easy to ascertain when you know the PUP (Pick Up Points)

If you 'think' you have a small date Denver minted coin, it would be easy to determine, after all, how do you think the 70 Philly & Frisco small dates were found? But, and that's a big but, after 48 years I'm certain they would have been found already, but stranger things have happened like the 1919 doubled die dime that was just recently discovered.

Yes, Robec was nice enough to contact him for me and he's seen the video and his response was 
 
"Wow, that is by far the most PL copper Wheat I've ever seen. Your pictures in the GTG thread aren't convincing (I would have guessed that the obverse was a strong semi-prooflike, and the reverse wasn't as strong - I probably would have guessed it may earn a Star). 

However, your video is quite convincing. The obverse in the video looks slightly weaker than the reverse, but still should qualify for PL based on what I'm seeing. 

What I've found after a few years of submitting PL coins raw.... NGC doesn't always really consider an unusual series for PL. They'll grade the coin accurately, but they don't necessarily think to call it PL. I've questioned them about this (and not just the lowly folk... I've talked to David Lange and Mark Salzberg directly about this). It's just so esoteric that the graders don't even think to include it."

They are still around, click on the users name, they are in the Gallery. I for one only see a worn 1970-D Washie