EagleRJO

I have been seeing more topics being posted lately where having access to basic resources or the correct terms would be helpful in asking and answering those questions as discussed here. I had some time available, so I took a shot at a topic that can be pinned to this "newbie" sub-forum with some basic info and links. I also drafted a follow up addition to the initial post with some resources and infographics on specific areas with common questions like coin errors, varieties, doubling on coins, rare cents like the 1982-D small date copper, etc. with some of the links and infographics previously posted here and elsewhere. This should be particularly useful for people to identify post-mint damage which is often posted as a question asking if the damage is an error, with many of the various references being repeatedly posted. So this topic can provide a simple one link sticky topic for checking those issues, and which can be pasted into replies Let me know if there are any questions, comments or suggested additions before I post the topic and ask for it to be pinned as discussed. -------------------------------------------------- Topic: Basic Resources & Glossary For Those Posting Questions When considering posting coins or questions it is often helpful to first check some basic resources which may answer commonly asked questions. In addition, using proper terminology when posting questions will help to more accurately convey what you are asking about and increase the likelihood of having your questions properly answered. Concerning general questions that people may have about coins and collecting them, it may be something that has been previously asked on the chat boards or information that is readily available on the NGC site, either of which can be searched as follows: To search the NGC Chat boards click on the search icon (magnifying glass) on the top right of a chat board page (https://boards.ngccoin.com/search/), and then type in the question or topic of interest. There are also various filters that can be added to the search. To search the entire NGC site click on the NGC Logo at the top left of any page to go to the NGC home page (http://www.ngccoin.com), and look for the search bar near the top of the page and within the drop down "Menu" tab to type in your question or topic of interest. You can also hover over the various drop down menu tabs which have topics of interest that can be explored, including the "Resources" tab as an example which contains many research related topics. Concerning using proper terminology related to coins see the attached infographic entitled "Anatomy of a Coin" and the NGC "Glossary of Numismatic Terms" (http://www.ngccoin.com/news/article/2202/Glossary/). Using proper terms in posting questions and conversing with board members will more accurately convey what is being asked and understanding information being provided by board members. Concerning newer collectors who are just starting out in the coin collecting hobby, and others who just want to increase their knowledge about coins, it is important to have and study some basic coin collecting resources. In addition, there are also commonly referenced books on the value of coins as well as true coin errors. A topic on the chat boards which discusses these resources van be found at the following page: Topic: Resources for Newer Collectors Also, when posting questions about specific coins it is important to start a separate threat for each coin and include clear and focused pictures of the entire coin showing both the obverse (front) and reverse (back) sides of that coin. Close up pictures of specific areas of the coin related to those questions can also be added as desired. However, just posting a picture of one side of a coin or just close up pictures related to a question often does not provide enough information in order for others to properly understand the questions being asked and respond appropriately. And please read the topic entitled "What you need to know about posting coins for inquiry" (Topic: What you Need to Know About Posting Coins). Keep in mind that those responding are just hobbyist that enjoy collecting coins, or those in related fields, who are volunteering their time trying to assist others related to that, and are just providing individual opinions that are not an official response or position of NGC unless stated otherwise. Please refrain from posting questions or comments in this topic to keep it short and to the point for people seeking information, and instead post a new topic tagging me and linking to this with comments or suggested additions. -------------------------------------------------- (Basic Resources & Glossary For Those Posting Questions, cont.) Coin Info, Errors & Varieties As a follow up concerning resources, there are often common questions asked in the forums or areas of coin collecting where checking some basic references related to that first can be very helpful or answer questions some may have. Concerning coin errors and varieties of coins, it is important to first understand some basics about how coins are made, what actually is a coin error or variety which may have some value, grades of coins that affect values, what is just post mint damage to a coin that is not valuable, and what are some known or recognized coin errors or varieties. How US Coins are Made: https://www.usmint.gov/learn/production-process Information about Specific Coins: https://www.ngccoin.com/coin-explorer Coin Info & Grades: https://www.pcgs.com/coinfacts Tools for Grading: https://www.pcgs.com/news/tools-of-a-professional-coin-grader ANA Coin Related Videos: ANA eLearning YouTube Videos Coin Errors & Varieties: https://www.error-ref.com/ and http://varietyvista.com/ Doubled Die Varieties: https://doubleddie.com/ Error Coin Association: https://www.conecaonline.info/ Values for Some Error Coins: https://varietyerrors.com Pics of Specific Varieties: https://www.ngccoin.com/variety-plus/ Morgan Dollar Varieties: Morgan Dollar VamWorld US Coin Price Guides: https://www.ngccoin.com/price-guide Counterfeit Coins: Modern Chinese Counterfeit Coins Article There are also several issues which are commonly posted where a simple comparison with the attached infographics can provides answers which includes: (a) coin production during which errors can occur; (b) doubling on a coin resulting from either common machine doubling (or "shelf doubling") or less commonly from a doubled die; and (c) indicators to use when looking for the astronomically rare 1982-D Lincoln small date copper penny. Please refrain from posting questions or comments in this topic to keep it short and to the point for people seeking information, and instead post a new topic tagging me and linking to this with comments or suggested additions.

Personally, I would actually use an even higher number as a submittal tipping point looking at what you could sell a raw coin for compared to what you could get for the coin slabbed less about $100 all-in for grading. There are also other considerations like a graded coin is easier to value, pass on to others or sell, and may be desired for a Registry Set. However, for the op's coin it seems like an easy call not to submit it for grading, and to just leave it in the OGP or put in a flip if desired to keep it.

I like some of the coins in the set, but $200 for essentially a bullion coin? Pass!

Looks like coins in the set are produced by a private mint called the First Coin Company Inc. Here is a link to the first coin in the Registry set ... https://firstcoincompany.com/S/usa-tribe-blackfoot-idaho-porcupine-native-state-dollars-series-jamul-native-american-sovereign-nations-1-silver-coin-2015-proof-1-oz

Sounds like you now need a "Third String" set.

Personally I would prefer to get something back as "Genuine - bla bla bla" than "Details - bla bla bla". Sounds a little easier to swallow that horribly tasting pill, but in the end matters little since it's the same result.

Looks like the circulated grades would be 1 (PR) to 8.9 (AU), and mint state would be 9.0 to 10 (vs 60 to 70 at present, so pretty similar there). It would also require additional half grades, consistent with or in lieu of that the continuation of "+" designations. I would have preferred to see a 100 point system with 1 (PR) to 89 (AU) for circulated grades and 90 to 100 for MS, without any decimals (e.g. a 67+ would simply become a 97+, and not a 9.75 or 97.5). Maybe it will eventually transition to that since I think it makes more sense for coin collectors and would be easier for most to wrap their heads around that.

Yes, I know. I had heard that TPGs becoming aware of how collectors were referring to those returned submittals was what prompted the discussion of perhaps changing something due to that negative connotation.

Wait, if dead horses are beating dead horses, who then beat the dead horse to begin with, who then subsequently itself became a dead horse which then began beating other horses which then became dead horses ... I sense a black hole also being involved here somehow.

Interesting Sandon. I have and intend to keep virtually my entire collection as raw coins or in OGP, except ones I purchase slabbed, so I have not encountered getting coins back in "body bags", and it's not likely to happen any time soon. It kind of looks like the entire submittal return (coin flip, tag and NGC card) is placed in a poly bag sealed closed with scotch tape. I had heard that the TPGs may have changed, or maybe are reconsidering, that method of returning coins somewhat due to the appropriate but negative connotation associated with that name.

Might be worth posting a question about that in the NGC Registry sub-forum to voice your concerns and make sure they are thinking that through to keep on top of any potential issues. ASEs (proof and BU) were one of my favorites for the longest time going back to 1986 ... well, at least up to 2021 when the mint went woke and started messing everything up. Long story short, all my mint subscriptions except the Innovation dollars are now canceled as a result, and I'm not sure how long that last subscription will last. But that's for another time and place to complain about.

Parry and thrust ...

Do the TPGs still return coins that can not be slabbed in "body bags"?

Not directed at you, but others who may have those misconceptions. The old saying is "don't shoot the messenger" 😉

Reality slamming into misconcieved perceptions can be disheartening sometimes. 😉

This registry set? https://www.ngccoin.com/registry/competitive/united-states/tokens-and-medals/7949/

Seems like for now they are treating the NGCX coins as a completely separate entity without any cross compatibility. However I don't think it's such an issue as apparently the new grading system is initially just to be used for modern bullion coins as mentioned by others. If the new system is eventually carried over to older coins I can't imagine not allowing either grade basis to be entered for the same set. Do you have registry sets of modern bullion coins where there is a concern?

I can't imagine that registry sites wouldn't develop a method to allow entry of coins with either industry grading system for the same sets if that's the direction it goes, where it would seem like a simple thing to convert to whichever is used as a points basis instead of requiring a crossover submission.

Forget talking about how having a more modern and logical 10 or 100 basis system could be used to fix clunky and illogical lower grade jumps, would align with condition scales for every other collectors hobby, and possibly provide added benefits for low-ballers of having coins that are even lower. Inquiring minds want to know, following after zadok, if you are trying to say Bo Derek is really a 7? 😜

I would stick with recognized resources as referenced by Sandon above. And of course search this forum for discussions on areas where there may be an interest, or post coins and questions which I think is a tremendous resource from which I have learned a great deal. Except for ANA eLearning vids on YT I would avoid that as a resource like the plaque due to inaccurate and incomplete click-bait money grabbing vids. However, I couldn't agree more with the last part.

I think switching to a 90-100 MS scale from 60-70 with + modifiers you would need to keep those + modifiers for consistency and to avoid using decimals. But with a 10 point system already announced it probably will be some type of additional half grade.

Even though I am comfortable with decimals dealing with scientific stuff forever, I could get behind that as a little easier for collectors to digest, and just in general not having decimals, with a 10 thru 80 for the eight circulated Fair thru AU and then 90 to 100 for MS (vs 60 to 70 now), and a zero for unidentifiable. The only caveat being other hobbies do use a 10 point scale. And I'm sure one of the first things you would see are conversion assistance tables and registry entries that could accept either system.

I meant not so much in terms of direct competition, but in terms of staying more relevant in general and what collectors are talking about.

I wonder how much of this NGCX thing is related to CAC getting into the grading game and NGC making a pre-emptive strike to get in front of that, and maybe also trying to be a leader and not a follower.

Sometimes there are issues that are not readily apparent to a layperson or visible with just pictures. I know it really sucks, knocks the value down somewhat and it's kind of like getting the booby prize, but at least it's verified as genuine and uncirculated, 😉