EagleRJO

In addition to that "Bifocals" label I have seen "Personal Computer", "Fiber Optic Cable" and "Microwave Popcorn" , with them all being just 2023 $1 silver bullion coins. I don't know how many variations there are, or if it's just those four. But take them out of the holders and they are all exactly the same, which is just the same silver bullion coins with no mint mark. Seems like another special label marketing gimmick by some bullion dealer. I see you requested that NGC create a new set in the "NGC Registry" sub-forum, but I can't see a new set being created for just special label bullion coins that are not even different coins or years, let alone if there are just four of them. I am just curious about how many different label variations you have, as I don't even see that special label listing by NGC.

Amen! From just the original pics with the appearance and greenish tint, particularly on the obverse, I was going to say probably no dice on the "Black Beauty". But the subsequent pics definitely have that look. Also, older ANACS slabbed ones state "Improperly Annealed" (heat treatment) on the label, but more recent ANACS slabbed ones like the attached state "Improper Alloy Mix". Did the reasoning on what caused the dark discoloration change at some point? Even in mint state why in the world would you even be thinking about submitting one to a TPG when you can easily scoop a readily available ANACS slabbed MS graded "Black Beauty" nickel for just $20 to $30 per sold ebay listings? Like the attached from a current ebay listing, out of about 2 dozen for sale.

I know you like Saints, but at 4x the gold and about 3x to 4x the price of the half-eagles being discussed that is way more than a "bit extra" in term of the gold. Talk about up-selling. The price of the 1862 G$1 can vary, and are much smaller with only 1/20 ounce of gold. The 1/4 ounce $5 Liberty Head half-eagles are pretty nice, and likely not much above your target cost lightly circulated.

Are you mostly looking for referrals to dealers who handle raw US modern coins which your posts seem to indicate? For slabbed coins I usually look for auctions, which is where many dealers get a good chunk of their inventory that is then marked up.

I agree, but I often use my scope instead of higher mag loupes I have when say looking for die indicators or signs of tooling as for me it's much easier to use. Plus my eyesight is not as sharp as it once was, and the FOV of the scope is greater as well as more stable. Newer collectors should just put away their scopes until they actually need them for more advanced purposes as they often show completely worthless anomalies that can be very misleading to less experienced collectors. I agree it's not a DDO even though there may be some worthless minor strike doubling. See the attached infographic and linked NGC webpage to help you differentiate strike or machine doubling (MD) from more collectible doubled dies (DD). Also see the following sites which list known doubled dies, including those for a 1958 Cent. It would not be very likely at all to find doubled dies not listed on either of these two sites. NCG Webpage MD vs DD ... https://www.ngccoin.com/news/article/5688/Double-Dies-vs-Machine-Doubling/ Doubled Die Listings ... http://doubleddie.com/228401.html & http://varietyvista.com/

Yea, keeping the same size for existing vending machines already in widespread use when the dime composition was changed makes a lot of sense.

I was looking at some older silver dimes and half dimes, and was wondering why modern dimes are still smaller and thinner than modern nickels. Originally nickels (or half dimes) were made of silver and smaller and thinner than silver dimes to contain a corresponding amount of precious metal. But they were more easily lost or damaged like silver trimes, so later in the 1800's the composition of nickels were changed to Cu-Ni in order for them to be made larger and thicker. At that time the dime was smaller since they were still made out of silver. But why didn't they also change the composition of a dime at that time to make it larger and thicker than a nickel, or at least make that change in the mid 1900's when the composition of a dime also changed to Cu-Ni? I guess were were just accustomed to the size of dimes not being progressive by the mid 1900's, but it did get me thinking why the change wasn't originally made.

Actually about $80 including shipping both ways for just the op's coin ($10 + $19 + $28 + ~$20 or so shipping to NGC), not including any error or variety, which is the least expensive submission possible. Some don't consider shipping costs which often exceeds the basic handling and grading cost (economy or modern tier) for a single coin submittal.

I assume you mean that you can not see a date on the coin, and not just that the label doesn't include a strike date. Must be a significant offset for an off-center strike to not include the date. Although collectors generally like to see a date on these to identify exactly which coin it is. You likey would only be able to get a date range if the strike is offset enough for the date to not be visible. Also, it looks like the "North East Error Collection" is pretty large. Were you looking for a coin from that collection, or just an off-center strike error coin in general? Likely a very large error collection, with at least 454 coins submitted to NGC from the example certification number on the coin RWB posted (attached), which may be how they got a special label. It looks like coins in that collection have photos with the NGC certifications. If you look up or identify the NGC certification number you will likely find photos that can be posted. https://www.ngccoin.com/certlookup/

I do see the strange indications of a faint circular groove close to the edge you are referring to, and agree the coin likely has some damage combined with wear which may have partially obscured that. Although I am still scratching my head as to what may have caused that as it couldn't just be from a coin wrapper. However, it still looks like there was also some grease on the die that obscured details in that area, as well as lettering outside of that area like at "In God We Trust". It would not be likely to have such significant wear to lower relief lettering while higher relief elements such as the hair around the ear do not show similar significant wear. It may not have been the first coin struck with grease on the die, and previous strikes through the grease may have moved that grease around and consumed some. I think this is an interesting one, and to me it looks like a combination of a struck-thru and some damage with wear.

What auction house? Also have you accurately weighed the coin and measured the diameter and thickness which might provide some other clues?

I'm not so sure. Based on the pictures and descriptions I would tend to agree with Coinbuf that it is likely struck thru some grease, perhaps combined with some circulation wear and dings. Attached is an example of a Washington 25C certified by NGC to have both struck thru (grease) and die break errors which looks very similar (except for the die), as well as a side-by-side comparison to that with the op's coin on the left.

Oh boy, here we go is right. Linking YT again instead of going to reputable sources like the one Sandon posted or from reputable people on this topic like RWB.

The toning on the example XF grade 1875 20C coin I posted above appears natural to me, with good color progression. But the toning does not completely cover the fields, with no signs of a harsh cleaning where there is no toning, unlike your coin which has clear signs of a harsh cleaning throughout on both sides. It's likely your coin would get a details grade due to the apparent harsh cleaning, even if it was authenticated which I think is a bigger issue. You really need to decide if it's worth it to submit for authentication and grading considering what you spent on the coin and the likelihood of it being details graded or body bagged as a counterfeit given the discrepancies noted, as well as considering it is just photos being reviewed while you have the coin in-hand. The pictures you posted of a slabbed proof 1878 20C coin are very blurry and there appears to be some staining or discoloration due to the age of the coin, but even so I do not see indications of a harsh cleaning. As Sandon noted the TPGs often allow a little leeway on very old coins that have been wiped or very lightly cleaned due to how common that practice was long ago. I think a reasonable approach for you, considering your apparent knowledge and the potential value of these coins, would be to stick with coins that have already been graded and slabbed by one of the top TPGs while you learn more about these coins and grading them. For raw coins stay away from sites like ebay or etsy, or better yet avoid raw coins completely for now, and see Sandon's post for reputable auction houses. It is not legal to sell counterfeit coins in the US, and if the coin was recently purchased you may be able to request a refund if the listing information was not accurate. The first step would be to contact the seller or auction house. If it was recently purchased on ebay you may still be able to get a refund if the seller is unresponsive as they have a site wide refund policy. But they may request you submit it to a TPG to verify it's harshly cleaned or not authentic.

I use the Red Book mostly for general information about coins such as descriptions with pictures, grading details specific to a particular coin series, and mintages. I only use the Red Book values in relative terms to see what year, mark and grade coins may be worth compared to other years, marks and grades. I very often bid on and see coins go for somewhere between the NGC and PCG$ guide prices. But I am often very patient and only bid around or usually somewhat below the NGC guide prices which are lower in general, and which has worked to buy quite a few coins on auction sites like Great Collections. What auction sites are you referring to where coins never go for around the guide prices, which are usually based on actual auction results? And if you mean you would go broke using the PCG$ guide prices to buy coins I would generally agree as they seem to be very high overall (and thus the abbreviation I use ). From your updated post with pictures added I agree that the coin seems a little off with some details like Liberty's head and lower part of the dress around the legs as well as the shield not looking right. What really jumps out is the different font of the lettering for "Liberty" on the shield. That looks like someone tried to reproduce the lettering. So it likely is a counterfeit. Regardless, it looks like the coin has XF details, has some damage like at the date, and more importantly has been harshly cleaned with an unnatural appearance and scratches all over the fields on both sides of the coin. I am just looking at pictures of a coin, but it seems like the dealer correctly identified it as trash. See the attached example of a genuine XF grade 1875 20C coin for an in-hand comparison.

If the op is truly interested in error coins I think it would be better to visit a site like Error-Ref.com, which has voluminous descriptions and examples of true error coins as well as good info on identifying non-error coins, than to spend more time looking at worn and damaged coins that people think might be errors. I get my fill of seeing damaged coins where people are curious if they may be errors just reading through the posts on this forum. And I think assuming what is observed on a coin is wear and damage unless shown to be something else is a good approach to take. That's not surprising as if it appears to have a very hard clear coating of something over the coin it may be lacquer. This was an (imo inappropriate) old school method sometimes used by collectors in an attempt to protect coins by reducing exposure to the elements, prior to encapsulation becoming popular. I recall some posts about this coating from quite a while ago, and how just an acetone bath didn't remove it. The TPG's are not very open on how they attempt to remove these coatings when a coin is conserved, but I imagine it would likely be some kind of paint thinner or stripper to initially loosen the hard coating followed by a long acetone soak. But these are extremely flammable and therefore very dangerous to play around with, and not really worthwhile even considering for such a common coin. https://www.ngccoin.com/news/article/5789/NCS-coin-conservation-lacquer/

There are NGC Price Guides which seems pretty reasonable on average, although sometimes just a little low for some US coins I collect. Plus guide prices are just that, a guide, and for slabbed coins. https://www.ngccoin.com/price-guide/united-states/ https://www.ngccoin.com/price-guide/world/ Also most NGC coin certification pages should have the guide price noted on the lower right if available. Hmmm, sounds like someone is having a frustrating day, with an attempt at a little morbid humor. Although technically an option, it's not one generally recommended. Coin collecting can get overwhelming if you try to go too far too fast. Maybe take it a little slower, starting with some basics like the attached two references (which I think any collector should have), and slowly going through the info found at the following links over time: https://boards.ngccoin.com/topic/428817-resources-for-new-collectors/ https://boards.ngccoin.com/topic/430263-basic-resources-glossary/

I assume you are looking for referrals related to raw coins, as slabbed coins can pretty much be purchased from anyone with minimal risk doing some basic checks. Consider that there are many unscrupulous and clueless sellers on ebay, and I have encountered countless counterfeit, over-graded (by at least one grade), or improperly listed coins on ebay. I have also noticed that list prices tend to be on the high side, with sellers reluctant to accept reasonable offers for coins. So recently I have pretty much been sticking with auctions on ebay from reputable sellers where I carefully evaluate any raw coins, as long as there is a reasonable reserve set which is not always the case. You have some good suggestions on dealers so I would just add MCM, Apmex and JD Bullion for raw coins. I have found there are very few reputable dealers that handle a good selection of raw coins, at least for coins I collect. You will pay high retail with these dealers as Coinbuf noted, but I think the premium is worth the cost related to raw coins where there can be considerable risk. The one dealer that handles raw coins I think is also reputable but which I usually avoid, except for lower value raw coins due to typically outrageous prices, is Littleton. You have to be very careful with ebay seller feedback as I have come across some very shady sellers with multiple counterfeit, blatantly misrepresented, grossly over-graded, or significantly over-valued garbage coins that appear to have good seller feedback. I noticed that several appeared to have multiple accounts that they ping-pong buy-sell relatively inexpensive unrelated items to generate good seller feedback, with the same feedback accounts on those multiple accounts. Buyer beware really applies related to ebay coin sellers. Some good advice. If I find a coin on ebay I usually check if it's available on the dealers regular website, where it often is also listed for less. Auction sites (in addition to ebay) I have used include Heritage Auctions (HA) and Great Collections (GC). I have bid on and purchased quite a lot of coins on GC as I think they have a more reasonable 10% seller fee with direct pay, and mostly realistic reserves, but they pretty much just hanle slabbed coins. There are also auction sites like Collectors Corner, but they appear to be just a pass-through auction site that tacks on an additional buyers fee. So I usually look for the original dealer or auction site if I see a coin I am looking for there.

It is an off-center strike error, but it does look like it's damaged with a large gouge on the obverse and has other damage such as scratches and hits. I think the pic of the tag answers one of your questions that "NGC can encapsulate this coin as being genuine", or what is referred to as a "details grade", that also notes the error on the label. See the attached example of a details grade mint error, although it's for a different coin and error. However, I agree that due to the significant damage and significant amount of wear it may not be worth re-submitting.

No problem as it's fairly easy to add images to a post once you know how. When editing or replying to a post go to the area just below where you type, near the bottom, which has a paper clip symbol and says "Drag files here to attach, or choose files...". Click on "choose files" and locate the image you want to attach. Just make sure to include full pics of both sides, that the images are in focus and crop them directly around the coin like the attached so they show up as a decent size in the post which is much easier to see. There are also file size limitations.

And this continues with poorly struck coins and all the recent woke coin programs, which seems to be the misguided primary concern. They don't seem to really care about quality any more, and they cut corners in important areas to make up for losses associated with unpopular woke coin programs. The only thing I still buy direct from the mint any more are the inexpensive collector dollars, since I also have uncirculated and proof Presidential and Innovation dollar coins in my collection. Even those have become poorly designed and struck, and very little wear obliterates the year and mark only found on the edges. I hope the mint wakes up and realizes that their former unmatched world class reputation is going down the toilet. Sorry for the rant, but it just burns my britches. You are correct that PCG$ refers to this variety as a "Flared G" ... https://www.pcgs.com/coinfacts/coin/1988-1c-flared-g-fs-901-rd/569369 But I agree with Sandon that your coin is not the rare Philly transitional reverse "Flared G" 1988 1C FS-901 (Rev of 89) since the "flare" is missing. It's not possible that just the serif flare wore off without similar wear to the rest of the "G", or without leaving any signs that the flare was once there. And the overall shape of the "G" doesn't match. See the attached side-by-side comparison to the Flared G variety engravers initials, with your coin on the left which should make this clear. There is also a detailed description with diagnostics at the following Error-Ref.com link, including the attached images, for identifying the Flared G 1988 Rev of 89 Cent variety if you are still not sure. https://www.error-ref.com/transitional-reverse-1988-1c-with-reverse-of-1989/ --------------------------------

Completely off topic, but that's too bad as there is a wealth of information available to numismatists on the internet including those, an ANA digital library. etc. And there are links to priceless historical mint documents available to read over the internet. Of course these are difficult to read with just a smartphone. Maybe one of these days you will get out of the stone age and buy a computer, unless something changed recently, but I'm not holding my breath as you seem pretty set in your ways. Also completely off topic, but I assume that at least part of the trip related to looking for some European coins. Any good finds?

You can occasionally find decent condition older coins in bank rolls. Was there anything specific you were curious about?

Sweet talking the bank girls again!

Which fantasy coins or tokens are you referring to which resemble legitimate rare coins? As far as I know those are terms related to pieces which never existed. But that wouldn't have anything to do with the subject coin or something the op would need to be aware of. It could be made of silver to more closely resemble legit pieces. If you weigh the piece with an accurate scale that could give you an indication as it should weigh about 12.50g +/- 0.10g. But a correct weight doesn't necessarily mean it's silver as off-metal counterfeits sometimes are made with a different thickness that results in a close overall weight. In that case a shop with an XRF tester could tell you or the specific gravity would need to be checked.