Woods020

Sometimes. There are certain series where there is more consistency in the grade spread between the two than other series.
As for pricing difference, I feel that the PCGS pictures and their slab can command a premium. The pics are great looking (if not exactly accurate) and the PCGS slab is, in my opinion, much better for viewing the coin. Early on NGC had a reputation of being stricter than PCGS. 
What we need is a slab that is clear like the PCGS slab, as scratch resistant as the NGC slab, and has the grade info on top like the ANACS slab. 
 
Kind of. I feel like the NGC discount has gotten smaller on a lot of coins. Take a look at eBay results on generic coins and you'll frequently find that there is not a big spread between the two. 
The one area I feel the spread remains is on really high grade coins. PCGS commands higher prices in the rarified high grades. To be fair, they are generally tighter on those grades than NGC. However, it is very hard to compare. Let's say NGC graded the coin MS68 and it sold for $2,000, where a PCGS MS68 sells for $3,000. Considering the NGC MS68 may only grade MS67+ at PCGS (which sells for $1500), it is arguable to say that the NGC coin sold for more than the PCGS because they wouldn't have graded the same. There are no apples-to-apples comparisons here since every coin is unique. 
 
NGC wins by default on ancients as PCGS does not grade them. Not sure about tokens. It's possible that NGC has more marketshare as they used to grade a wider variety of items than PCGS. Then it flip-flopped. Now both TPG will grade practically anything that will fit in their holder. 
 
Lots of things. PCGS had better marketing than NGC. Early on you couldn't go to any show without seeing the PCGS plastic boxes in every dealers case. You knew immediately what it was. Instant product recognition. NGC guards their plastic boxes like they're made of gold. 
I believe that PCGS also had a larger dealer network so more coins were submitted to them early on. I know in my area there were several PCGS dealers to choose from. There were a couple of NGC dealers, but I recall that the two in reasonable distance to me didn't want to deal with the public. Thankfully, both are out of business today.
NGC's unwillingness to slab modern coins. The company owner publicly pi**ing on moderns. Refusing to sell your customers what they want is one of the dumbest moves a company can make. I don't know how long it was before NGC started grading moderns, but when they did they clearly made a decision to be loose on the grading. I recall a friend and I doing a bulk submission to both PCGS & NGC. The PCGS batch had 3/100 grade 70. The NGC batch was around 50/50. The price for NGC moderns was much lower than for PCGS. Given the massive amount of moderns graded, people see the PCGS examples selling for more and that translates to other areas of the market. Then PCGS screwed around with 70s and destroyed the modern market. 
Historically the TPGs liked certain things. NGC used to like original toning even if it was ugly. They put a lot of ugly coins in really high grade slabs. These sold at a discount. PCGS liked luster and bright white. It's much easier to accept a pretty coin at a high grade than an ugly one. Even if technically they were the same condition, the ugly one is going to sell for less.
 

Whether they know what they're are talking about, or they don't... that doesn't matter.  If you are a dealer and you are planning on ceding risk with me, I will need upside to make taking the risk a viable business decision.  When a dealer sells a MS63 for MS65 money and tells you "It's much better than a 63, it's a 65" - this is exactly what they are doing.  They are ceding the grading risk with the buyer and leaving no upside.

Thin markets are excessively affected by innuendo.

Now that we have started talking disparity between the TPG pricing...
Should we talk labels (OGH, Doily, Old Fatty, etc etc etc.)? I feel like if it were going to upgrade, a dealer would have upgraded it.  Every old label coin is not better than it's new label cousin.   How about CAC?  Does it make sense in any world for a MS63CAC to price higher than a MS64? This will never make sense to me.  I get eye appeal and protection from over grading... but this is silly. How about "dealer spin"... The old, "As you can see... this MS63 is too good for this holder, so I am going to tell my customer it should be a MS65 and ask MS65 money". This is my #1 pet peeve.  If you are a dealer, please don't give me this line.  Crack it, or CAC it if you are confident... but don't give me your BS stories.  We both know that if you REALLY thought it was a MS65, you would re-submit.  Dealers are trying to put the risk on me to upgrade while they get guaranteed payment.   I had this discussion with a dealer, and he was adamant.  I told him to "crack it then".  He said, "I non longer have to crack, I have TPG reconsideration."  To which I said, "then, pay your money to get your letter from the TPG telling you they were correct the first time." We have not done business since.

I haven’t seen this debate here, atleast not for a long time. Should make for some good conversation. 
 
1. Do you think it is justified in any way that one TPG graded coins surpasses the other? (Only inclusive of NGC and PCGS)
2. Does anyone disagree there is a disparity in sales prices? 
 
3. Generally speaking it seems NGC wins on early gold, ancients and tokens. PCGS wins elsewhere. Most of what I deal with I discount NGC graded coins slightly. Agree/Disagree?
4. What historically caused the disparity? Is there any actual history or it’s just one of those things that we just can’t explain?

Agreed. I sell common date Morgans to a friend at rareco often. I just tell them the grade and he gives me a price. They do deduct $5 if it’s toned, which is interesting. 

Hmmmm. Interesting…. 

Hmmmm. Interesting…. 

Hmmmm. Interesting…. 

You have just unleashed the Dogs of War.  Thanks, Putin !! 
I think -- or one would THINK it was the case -- that in the early years of grading that perhaps NGC developed a reputation (fairly or unfairly) as a looser grader.  Or maybe they graded correctly and PCGS was just "tougher."  Or maybe they graded the same but folks paid up more for PCGS labels for whatever reason (more famous founders like Hall and Albanese ?  Better marketing ?  1st mover advantage ?) and thus PCGS could "get away" with a higher grade to justify a higher price via market grading (more common around 2004).
Or this could all be a bunch of baloney, I freely admit. 
No, but there are some areas where I feel that if anything NGC does a better job and her coins aren't being rewarded for it...and where PCGS has some notorious overgrading bordering on idiocy (i.e., Franklin Half Dollars).
Generally agree.  PCGS premiums or even in domestic coins.... but NGC ahead in foreigns/ancients.  I also think PMG (NGC affiliate) ahead of PCGS and Legacy in currency.
Like I said, maybe the vets here can chime in.  But maybe pre-internet in the first 10 years of the TPGs NGC graded looser or PCGS harder and they developed a reputation.  When market grading got more common about 2004 it seems that is when the PCGS premium expanded or was more noticeable (by then, the internet had also been around for a few years and word spread easily among dealers and savvy collectors/buyers).
I wonder if NGC coins 20+ years ago also traded at a PREMIUM for foreign/ancients at the same time her domestics traded at a discount ?
I would say that for me I also wasn't crazy about some of the older NGC holders compared to their PCGS counterparts.  But I love the current ones from NGC more than PCGS, FWIW, especially the modern labels.
As I alluded to earlier, I think if anything you can make the case that the most recent egregious gradeflations involve PCGS.  The notorious PCGS Franklin Gradeflation thread over at CU (affiliated with PCGS) -- which apparently may have been the reason so many who posted there got banned from the site -- is one example. 
I should note this:  we are able to have this discussion here at the NGC Forums, even while noting their shortcomings.  I daresay this thread would probably NOT be allowed -- or would be censored and/or cut short maybe with suspensions/bannings (from what I have heard) -- by PCGS/CU.  One reason why I do NOT believe PCGS should trade at the premium is that I do believe that NGC graders are pretty much up to par with PCGS folks and I believe that NGC's more open-discussion policy is proof that they have nothing to hide or fear.  Quite frankly, open discussion and criticism should not be feared since you probably have back-and-forth with people both criticizing and defending you.  If that scares you, then the naysayers probably have the stronger argument.

I haven’t seen this debate here, atleast not for a long time. Should make for some good conversation. 
 
1. Do you think it is justified in any way that one TPG graded coins surpasses the other? (Only inclusive of NGC and PCGS)
2. Does anyone disagree there is a disparity in sales prices? 
 
3. Generally speaking it seems NGC wins on early gold, ancients and tokens. PCGS wins elsewhere. Most of what I deal with I discount NGC graded coins slightly. Agree/Disagree?
4. What historically caused the disparity? Is there any actual history or it’s just one of those things that we just can’t explain?

We don’t just sell them, we buy them sight-unseen, as well.

Not true about no one buying sight-unseen anymore. Among other things, Heritage buys and sells large quantities of gold coins in various grades, essentially every day. And I’m sure we’re not the only company that does so.

It’s a question that if you ask 10 people you may get 10 slightly different answers. Most people set a dollar value, say $150 or $250, that the coin must meet in order to have it graded. Others will assess on a coin by coin basis, which is what I do now. Some coins, especially modern coins in high grades, I may get graded at a much lower price point but I can double my money of what I have in the coin. Say something I cherry pick out of an uncirculated set. Others may only get coins graded they want to sell. Long story semi-long there is no “right” answer. 

I can see the initials outline in your photo, they are there just very faint.

Thanks Mike. Much appreciated. I went through the book side of it and could not find this exact variety.

No worries. Clearly I was stumped too

I did see prices all over the map for this and couldn't do an exact match-up in the HA database.  Surprised "gold" is on the label if it's not 100% gold.  Makes tracking past comparables difficult, for sure.
Sorry for the error, Woods.

Thanks Mike. Much appreciated. I went through the book side of it and could not find this exact variety.

While it would be great to be able to buy coins sight-unseen without any worries or disappointments, nearly everyone knows that's not reality. And in this case, the issue is quite easy to see and very different from what you described for the Two Cent Piece above.

That sounds way too high to me and I see that Kentucky Mike has confirmed that. Where did you obtain the figures you posted?

Is the coin -- and the slab -- authentic ?  If so, coin in that condition without the PL or DPL indicator should be worth anywhere from $1,500 - $3,500.  But I am NOT familiar with this coin, just going by past sales.

Same coin, MS67, sold at SB for $216 in Nov of 2021. It was from the same submission as this one # 5957109.
https://auctions.stacksbowers.com/lots/view/3-TZMTF/1852-california-gold-token-octagonal-12-liberty-bear-2c-ms-67-ngc
Looks like there were several of these in the same auction.
https://archive.stacksbowers.com/?q=049f6e03-51ee-446d-a729-5f5c9b682a5a
Your friends coin was in the same auction.

A friend of mine just acquired this coin, ironically not knowing anything about it. He is wondering price and rarity, but after digging through all the California fractional stuff I can’t find this one listed. Anyone know about this?

Copper really is a unique animal.  You have so much color and surface variance.  The TPG grading of copper is inconsistent.  Then throw-in the fact the quality control at the US Mint was shoddy at best, and there are lots of errors and varieties (many not labeled).  These are coins that I would especially recommend against buying sight unseen.  I would also HIGHLY recommend all online buying have a return policy.