How did this straight grade?
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30 posts in this topic

I’m far from a large cent expert, but how in the world did this straight grade? I thought it had a clip when I first saw it. What am I missing? 149481D8-B4CE-45E7-8269-426804B70DD7.jpeg.4cb09107118c4fb981923f578cee24b5.jpeg

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It is a clip.  Did you submit the coin?

Edited by tj96
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On 3/8/2022 at 7:49 PM, MarkFeld said:

Because it was made that way at the Mint.

Would it not get some notation? I agree I am sure it came this way. But does NGC not notate something like this? I know they would if a fee was paid for error attribution, but it shocks me that this isn't noted in some way. 

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On 3/8/2022 at 8:52 PM, tj96 said:

It is a clip.  Did you submit the coin?

No I was looking at it to acquire.

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On 3/8/2022 at 8:54 PM, Woods020 said:

No I was looking at it to acquire.

Whoever submitted the coin probably didn't specify attribution on the submission form.

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On 3/8/2022 at 8:54 PM, Woods020 said:

Would it not get some notation? I agree I am sure it came this way. But does NGC not notate something like this? I know they would if a fee was paid for error attribution, but it shocks me that this isn't noted in some way. 

No dough, no donuts.

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On 3/8/2022 at 8:54 PM, Woods020 said:

No I was looking at it to acquire.

Buy it, them re-submit for attribution.  Easy pesy.

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On 3/8/2022 at 9:00 PM, tj96 said:

No dough, no donuts.

I am thinking at it more through the lens as a buyer. If I was buying sight unseen, which was the grand plan that was the genesis for TPGs, I would want to know this. That is why I am shocked it is just straight grade with no notation. Kind of destroys the concept of buying sight unseen in my opinion. Not that I ever will, just saying that was the whole idea behind these companies.

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On 3/8/2022 at 9:04 PM, tj96 said:

Buy it, them re-submit for attribution.  Easy pesy.

I don't want it. I want it as pristine as possible. Which is why I want to know that the coin has a nuance from the TPG.

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On 3/8/2022 at 9:06 PM, Woods020 said:

I am thinking at it more through the lens as a buyer. If I was buying sight unseen, which was the grand plan that was the genesis for TPGs, I would want to know this. That is why I am shocked it is just straight grade with no notation. Kind of destroys the concept of buying sight unseen in my opinion. Not that I ever will, just saying that was the whole idea behind these companies.

Buying sight unseen and coin?  You lost me.

 

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On 3/8/2022 at 9:08 PM, Woods020 said:

I don't want it. I want it as pristine as possible. Which is why I want to know that the coin has a nuance from the TPG.

If you want the nuance on the label in the slab, you gotta ask for it and pay for it.

Edited by tj96
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On 3/8/2022 at 9:15 PM, tj96 said:

Buying sight unseen and coin?  You lost me.

 

A large part of the selling point of the TPGs was to create the ability to buy a coin sight unseen. Their grade is supposed to be accurate, and they stand behind it with a guarantee. I should have been clearer in my initial question. My issues is that I want to know this coin is like this on the label in some way. While the grading companies want the submitter to pay for it, that is counter to their mission. You should, theoretically, be able to buy a coin from NGC or PCGS sight unseen and be confident in what you are getting. Here the desire to dictate another fee from the submitter does a disservice to the buyer in my opinion. That is my issue.

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On 3/8/2022 at 9:17 PM, tj96 said:

If you want the nuance on the label in the slab, you gotta ask for it and pay for it.

My point exactly. They want a fee from the submitter to do what they promise to the buyer. I disagree with it. Go read about what TPGs were designed to do.

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On 3/8/2022 at 9:18 PM, Woods020 said:

A large part of the selling point of the TPGs was to create the ability to buy a coin sight unseen. Their grade is supposed to be accurate, and they stand behind it with a guarantee. I should have been clearer in my initial question. My issues is that I want to know this coin is like this on the label in some way. While the grading companies want the submitter to pay for it, that is counter to their mission. You should, theoretically, be able to buy a coin from NGC or PCGS sight unseen and be confident in what you are getting. Here the desire to dictate another fee from the submitter does a disservice to the buyer in my opinion. That is my issue.

Some of the words you use above (supposed to and theoretically), may have answered your own question.  We all know the term....buy the coin, not the slab.

In my opinion, it's a subjection hobby we're all involved with.

I see your points though.

Edited by tj96
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Copper really is a unique animal.  You have so much color and surface variance.  The TPG grading of copper is inconsistent.  Then throw-in the fact the quality control at the US Mint was shoddy at best, and there are lots of errors and varieties (many not labeled).  These are coins that I would especially recommend against buying sight unseen.  I would also HIGHLY recommend all online buying have a return policy.

Edited by The Neophyte Numismatist
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On 3/8/2022 at 9:30 PM, tj96 said:

Some of the words you use above (supposed to and theoretically), may have answered you own question.  We all know the term....buy the coin, not the slab.

I my opinion, it's a subjection hobby we're all involved with.

If you were buying multiple coins a day every day you might see it differently. And if you understood what the TPGs were designed to do you might as well. 

If someone called me on the phone and said I had this coin for sale, graded NGC XXX. I should be able to, and might if the price is right, buy the coin based on the label. That is what the bluebook price is exactly. I won't know exactly what I am getting, but I should know what I am not getting. Here I don't think that is the case. I feel like the TPGs are worried about getting fees from submitters for certain things, which I do not fault, but when a coin is fundamentally unique I feel it is owed to the buyer to know that in some way. 

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On 3/8/2022 at 9:57 PM, The Neophyte Numismatist said:

I would also HIGHLY recommend all online buying have a return policy

Couldn't agree more. I have returned two coins in the last week. Not that I wanted to, but I had to. One was a really nice MS66 two cent piece, but it had green in every crevice on the coin. Some of it was bright and the first thing I saw in hand that could not be seen in pics. I went back and looked to see how I missed it and I could not see it in the pics.

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On 3/8/2022 at 9:57 PM, Woods020 said:

If you were buying multiple coins a day every day you might see it differently. And if you understood what the TPGs were designed to do you might as well. 

If someone called me on the phone and said I had this coin for sale, graded NGC XXX. I should be able to, and might if the price is right, buy the coin based on the label. That is what the bluebook price is exactly. I won't know exactly what I am getting, but I should know what I am not getting. Here I don't think that is the case. I feel like the TPGs are worried about getting fees from submitters for certain things, which I do not fault, but when a coin is fundamentally unique I feel it is owed to the buyer to know that in some way. 

Yes, I suppose I would see it differently if I was buying multiple coins a day, every day. 

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The cert # is on the label. Easy enough to look it up on NGC to view the coin. 

I would of course prefer that as much information about the coin be present on the label, but in this instance it's easy enough to look up the coin using the cert #. CAC, milk spot development, color change with copper, toning, etc. all things that are either not on the label or could change after the label is printed. Buying a coin sight unseen now a days is ridiculous, 30 years ago when TPG was in its infancy I would agree that not noting this would be an issue due to availability of images and sending them. Today, the major role of TPG is authenticity and grade, not secondary attributions/nuances. No matter how much we would like for them to be noted. 

My question to U.S. and error collectors out there would be... Is this a cherry pick candidate? 

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On 3/8/2022 at 8:59 PM, Woods020 said:

Couldn't agree more. I have returned two coins in the last week. Not that I wanted to, but I had to. One was a really nice MS66 two cent piece, but it had green in every crevice on the coin. Some of it was bright and the first thing I saw in hand that could not be seen in pics. I went back and looked to see how I missed it and I could not see it in the pics.

While it would be great to be able to buy coins sight-unseen without any worries or disappointments, nearly everyone knows that's not reality. And in this case, the issue is quite easy to see and very different from what you described for the Two Cent Piece above.

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On 3/8/2022 at 9:06 PM, Woods020 said:

If I was buying sight unseen, which was the grand plan that was the genesis for TPGs,

"Sight unseen" basically died before the first year the TPG's were in operation.  The whole concept of TPG grading allowing you to buy sight unseen was a complete failure.  No one buys sight unseen anymore.

 

On 3/8/2022 at 9:57 PM, Woods020 said:

That is what the bluebook price is exactly.

The blue book, and the blue book prices predates TPGs by about 45 years.  Maybe you mean bluesheet prices.  Well originally those prices were for sight SEEN slabbed coins.  For awhile there was a sheet for sight unseen slabbed coins, it was the pinksheet and it's prices were about 25% of the bluesheet.  That was because with sight unseen buying it didn't matter what kind a dog you got, if the label grade matched what was ordered the coin was not returnable.  Hence the reason why the pinksheet prices were so low.

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On 3/9/2022 at 3:47 PM, Conder101 said:

"Sight unseen" basically died before the first year the TPG's were in operation.  The whole concept of TPG grading allowing you to buy sight unseen was a complete failure.  No one buys sight unseen anymore.

 

The blue book, and the blue book prices predates TPGs by about 45 years.  Maybe you mean bluesheet prices.  Well originally those prices were for sight SEEN slabbed coins.  For awhile there was a sheet for sight unseen slabbed coins, it was the pinksheet and it's prices were about 25% of the bluesheet.  That was because with sight unseen buying it didn't matter what kind a dog you got, if the label grade matched what was ordered the coin was not returnable.  Hence the reason why the pinksheet prices were so low.

Not true about no one buying sight-unseen anymore. Among other things, Heritage buys and sells large quantities of gold coins in various grades, essentially every day. And I’m sure we’re not the only company that does so.

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I did mean blue sheet. And a lot of dealers I know buy sight unseen occasionally. The world we live in today you would be hard pressed to buy and sell coins in volume and not do transactions over the phone or over email occasionally.
 

Also I do agree the mission failed, and that is my complaint. All the focus is on the submitter of the coin and not the future buyer per se. And I know each coin is unique, buyer beware, yada yada yada but it really calls into further question the value derived from TPGs if you can’t take chances and trust you are fairly certain what you will be getting within reason. And I also realize I am on a soap box about a nuanced situation. 

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Posted (edited)
On 3/9/2022 at 4:23 PM, Conder101 said:

For numismatic values or based on melt values?

The two big gold wholesalers, imperial and Rarcoa, offer most of their coins sight unseen. You don’t have an option. You pay for say an MS62, MS64, etc and they ship it. You don’t get the option to view them. And you are paying numismatic value to some extent. They aren’t ultra rarities, but they do have a numismatic premium based on grade. And heritage does something very similar and compete in that market, which is what Mark is referencing. 
 

They do the same with Morgans 

Edited by Woods020
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On 3/9/2022 at 4:23 PM, Conder101 said:

For numismatic values or based on melt values?

Both.

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On 3/9/2022 at 5:58 PM, Woods020 said:

The two big gold wholesalers, imperial and Rarcoa, offer most of their coins sight unseen. You don’t have an option. You pay for say an MS62, MS64, etc and they ship it. You don’t get the option to view them. And you are paying numismatic value to some extent. They aren’t ultra rarities, but they do have a numismatic premium based on grade. And heritage does something very similar and compete in that market, which is what Mark is referencing. 
 

They do the same with Morgans 


We don’t just sell them, we buy them sight-unseen, as well.

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On 3/9/2022 at 7:13 PM, MarkFeld said:


We don’t just sell them, we buy them sight-unseen, as well.

Agreed. I sell common date Morgans to a friend at rareco often. I just tell them the grade and he gives me a price. They do deduct $5 if it’s toned, which is interesting. 

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