Cleaned coin 1 1

[RisingfawnGA]

I have just restarted coin collecting after a long(30+ year) hiatus. I bought a coin on eBay as “uncirculated “ subsequently graded by NGC as unc details cleaned (an 1861 G$1 C). How can I determine its value? Is there a market anywhere for this grade coin? Thanks for anyone responding.

[Woods020]

Welcome back to collecting. This is a somewhat complex question. Generally as a rule of thumb you can assume a value atleast one grade down if not two.
 

Theoretically you could put the coin in your pocket for a year and the honest wear would remove the cleaning while also lowering the numeric grade. You also have to take into account the level of cleaning. A deep, aggressive cleaning will be two grades down or more. A light, older cleaning may only be one grade down. A way to think of it is what level of the coin is problem free. For example if it’s graded AU, and the cleaning is light, then at XF it would be problem free. This isn’t a science and just a way I think about it. 

[Just Bob]

Welcome to the forum, and back to the world of collecting.

Cleaning coins was considered an acceptable practice years ago, and today's collectors are still paying the price. If you were collecting in the 80s, you were around when cleaning was not considered to be hugely taboo the way it is now. Lightly cleaned coins were usually net graded, if the cleaning was even taken into consideration at all. Even respectable sellers, like Bowers and Merena or Heritage, sold moderately cleaned coins without any mention of it. It wasn't until the late 80s and 90s, when PCGS and NGC graded coins really took off in the marketplace, that cleaned coins started to be looked at as serious problem coins. They used to send them back to the submitter in a "body bag" with no grade, but now they are given a letter grade according to the wear they show, with a description of the problem, just as yours was.

There is definitely still a market for problem coins, especially the ones with only slightly detectible issues. I would expect your coin to bring VF to AU money, depending on the level of damage.

[BillJones]

You really need to post pictures in order for us to estimate a value. 

A cleaned coin is not necessarily worthless. It depends upon the sharpness grade and the degree of cleaning damage. 

I bought this 1861 silver dollar many years ago. It is a Proof that was totally stripped. The Proof surface was pretty well gone. I never had it certified because when I was dealer, it would have come back to me ungraded in what was called a "body bag" in those days. In other words I would have gotten nothing for my money. I sold this coin to another dealer for $1,100. If the coin had been left alone, it would have been worth several thousand. I know a dealer I who saw this piece before it was cleaned and told me about it. 

The pictures look a little odd because all I took was slides back 20 years ago. 

 

Edited March 8, 2022 by BillJones

[Coinbuf]

Welcome to the forum, clearly there is a market for cleaned coins because you bought the one you have.    Now how big or vigorous that market is depends on the amount of damage done by the cleaning process and the rarity of the coin, in your case Charlotte gold is highly desired so it may not be discounted as heavily as say a common date 1881-S Morgan dollar.   Photos of the coin would be needed for any of us to be more specific. 

Edited March 8, 2022 by Coinbuf

[tj96]

Welcome back.!

I agree with the crowd.

[The Neophyte Numismatist]

Welcome back - great advice above.

[RisingfawnGA]

On 3/8/2022 at 12:52 PM, BillJones said:

You really need to post pictures in order for us to estimate a value. 

A cleaned coin is not necessarily worthless. It depends upon the sharpness grade and the degree of cleaning damage. 

I bought this 1861 silver dollar many years ago. It is a Proof that was totally stripped. The Proof surface was pretty well gone. I never had it certified because when I was dealer, it would have come back to me ungraded in what was called a "body bag" in those days. In other words I would have gotten nothing for my money. I sold this coin to another dealer for $1,100. If the coin had been left alone, it would have been worth several thousand. I know a dealer I who saw this piece before it was cleaned and told me about it. 

The pictures look a little odd because all I took was slides back 20 years ago. 

 

Bill. Here are screenshots that my help a little. Not really good for detail. Thanks.  John

[BillJones]

You have an 1851 gold dollar with a mint mark I'm having trouble reading. After I download, I see that it is a "C" for the Charlotte Mint. Unfortunately someone polished the obverse of your piece.

This is the most common Charlotte mint coin, but it's still a good coin because anything from Charlotte is scarce. The Charlotte Mint operated from 1838 to 1861 when the Civil War closed it. After the war it became an assay office until circa 1912. The building was used as a post office until it was scheduled to be torn down. The citizens of Charlotte saved it and moved the building to another location where it became an art museum. 

Here is a Mint State 1851-C gold dollar. 

 

Edited March 8, 2022 by BillJones

[Woods020]

Now all the TPGs will clean them for you for a fee! 😂

[RisingfawnGA]

On 3/8/2022 at 10:44 PM, Woods020 said:

Now all the TPGs will clean them for you for a fee! 😂

TPG?

[Woods020]

On 3/8/2022 at 9:51 PM, RisingfawnGA said:

TPG?

Sorry third party graders. It’s a term for the companies like NGC, PCGS, ANACS…
 

I was joking how things have went full circle. From the days of a cleaned coin is body bagged to today all the grading companies, or TPGs, offer restoration as a service before they grade and slab your coin. Not to say that restoration is equivalent to Johnny in the basement cleaning a coin with sand paper. But it if ironic the evolution of how cleaning has been treated over time. Normal and common - a big no no - still bad but we will grade and just say it has a no no - you can’t clean them but we can 

[RisingfawnGA]

On 3/8/2022 at 10:58 PM, Woods020 said:

Sorry third party graders. It’s a term for the companies like NGC, PCGS, ANACS…
 

I was joking how things have went full circle. From the days of a cleaned coin is body bagged to today all the grading companies, or TPGs, offer restoration as a service before they grade and slab your coin. Not to say that restoration is equivalent to Johnny in the basement cleaning a coin with sand paper. But it if ironic the evolution of how cleaning has been treated over time. Normal and common - a big no no - still bad but we will grade and just say it has a no no - you can’t clean them but we can 

Appreciate your candor and insight. Should one get all their coins graded by a TPG? Or just coins you want to sell? 

[tj96]

I only get the coins graded I want to keep.

[RisingfawnGA]

On 3/9/2022 at 8:56 AM, tj96 said:

I only get the coins graded I want to keep.

Thanks. How do others feel?

[Woods020]

On 3/9/2022 at 7:58 AM, RisingfawnGA said:

Thanks. How do others feel?

It’s a question that if you ask 10 people you may get 10 slightly different answers. Most people set a dollar value, say $150 or $250, that the coin must meet in order to have it graded. Others will assess on a coin by coin basis, which is what I do now. Some coins, especially modern coins in high grades, I may get graded at a much lower price point but I can double my money of what I have in the coin. Say something I cherry pick out of an uncirculated set. Others may only get coins graded they want to sell. Long story semi-long there is no “right” answer. 

[Coinbuf]

On 3/9/2022 at 6:53 AM, RisingfawnGA said:

Appreciate your candor and insight. Should one get all their coins graded by a TPG? Or just coins you want to sell? 

Really depends on your collecting goals, nobody has to or should get coins graded unless it meets their goals.   For example I have a fairly high grade Lincoln set all slabbed and listed in the NGC registry, I also have a raw ungraded Lincoln set (slightly lower grade quality) in an album along with a few other partial raw album sets.   It would be foolish and a huge waste of money for me to have all the raw coins graded.   Someday, when I want to sell my raw coin collection, it will make sense to have the raw keys graded to enhance their desirability and salability to the public, the rest are better off just being sold as is in the album.

There is nothing wrong with leaving coins raw in an album or loose in 2X2's if that meets the collecting goal, just as there is nothing wrong (irresponsible perhaps) with having everything graded if that is what the collector wants.   Collecting coins is not about a right or wrong way, it is about collecting goals and methods, both of which are very different from one collector to the next.   I know of one person here who does not post anymore, as well as one or two on other chat boards that have spent quite a bit of money having coins slabbed that I would consider pocket change or clearly damaged coins.   Sometimes they had a personal attachment to the coin and wanted it graded and slabbed for that reason, some just considered it a learning experience.   While I do not agree with their choice and decision, I do respect that it is their money being spent and their choice on how to spend it.

[JKK]

On 3/9/2022 at 5:58 AM, RisingfawnGA said:

Thanks. How do others feel?

I've never sent a single one in for slabbing. Probably never will.

[RisingfawnGA]

On 3/9/2022 at 1:48 PM, JKK said:

I've never sent a single one in for slabbing. Probably never will.

 

[RisingfawnGA]

On 3/9/2022 at 2:08 PM, RisingfawnGA said:

 

I guess you need to have confidence in your ability to grade a coin then to have that approach, right. Thanks for your help.

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[JKK]

On 3/9/2022 at 11:32 AM, RisingfawnGA said:

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I guess you need to have confidence in your ability to grade a coin then to have that approach, right. Thanks for your help.

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That's part of it. Part of it is I rarely buy coins expensive enough to make sending them in make sense. By the time I can send it in, I already paid for it; therefore, if it comes back bogus, maybe I can return it, maybe I can't.

Part of it is the body bag era, which I gather is less prevalent, but has stayed with me psychologically. "Hi. We grade coins. However, if yours is cleaned or has some other issue, we might just send it back with less than a proper grade, and you just have to accept that." And that's their choice. It's my choice not to participate. I gather it's better now, but I'm one of those brains that never really forgets something (or someone) I think poorly of.

Part is that the grading art is so subjective that, to me, the primary benefit is authentication. I wish there were an authentication service that would simply attest to the piece not being counterfeit, but oh no, couldn't have that. Part is that I have seen the TPGs disagree enough on the same coin (sent in when advising a client on consignments) that they're not SuperGraders. Sure, they are well educated and experienced in the art, but it is an art rather than a science. I'm not a big art lover.

Oh, and what if one underestimates the coin's value? Ha! Pony up some more! Want them to actually look at the coin and determine any varieties or variations? That--which should be an automatic, included part of the service--will cost you more still. At some point, it takes a four-figure coin to make one even think about it.

And part is conservation services. I realize this is emphatically not the required mindset on my part, but when I look at that, I see: "Oh, hades. If they collectors are going to clean the coins anyway, we might as well do it for them, get paid for it, and do it right." Yes, I do understand the ostensible difference between cleaning and conservation. No, I do not always buy it. To me, it has always felt like "cleaning bad--unless, of course, we're making money on it."

So, in short, the TPGs have a long way to go before I'd start to think of them as good values. I think they have captive audiences and in our society, when one has a captive audience, one can set one's own terms and one makes sure one gets paid. And that's fine. I just don't join the audience.

I have no problem buying slabbed coins, of course. Someone else paid. I assume it's being passed on to me on some level, but that's up to my own judgment of value.

[The Neophyte Numismatist]

Benefit of Coin Grading:

• Your coin is authenticated as legitimate, and the Grade will allow you to much more easily assess the value of your collection
  • Graded coins are much more liquid than raw coins
• Graded holders will be the ultimate protection for your coin (opposed to envelopes, flips or 2x2s)

Downside of Coin Grading:

• Cost
  • Every TPG has a membership fee (NGC, PCGS, etc)
  • Submission has it's own per coin fee based on coin value, expedited shipping, variety/error designation, label...etc, etc, etc.
  • You pay shipping and insurance both ways

The lesson in a nutshell:

Make the juice worth the squeeze.  Do not spend $50 in fees, memberships and shipping to get a coin in a holder worth $10.  Make sure you do the math.

Caveat to that lesson:  If you want to have family coins graded and in holders for sentimental reasons, to preserve them.  You go into grading fully aware that you are not going to get the grading money back...I completely understand that rationale.

[Joseph Franklin]

All brilliant responses! I too am in the same boat of cost benefit ratio. It's also a gamble too, and after turning in my first set of coins and my own personal values on gambling, it doesn't sit well with me. As JP notes, your mindset going into this must be made up and hopefully for a good reason. That liquidity factor is very helpful. Like, the last 1966 SMS 5C DCAM MS68 sold for $9,700. That's why I made sure my coin matched their top winner of beat it. Honestly, I went into this wanting to beat out all those MS68's with all their scratches and missing steps even on an SMS strike which should be starting point #1. Since all SMS are supposed to have full steps why are thousand dollar coins lacking that and getting MS67/+? I'll be happy once it's all over.

Oh and welcome back too! I just started back up as well.

[J P M]

On 3/9/2022 at 9:57 PM, Joseph Franklin said:

All brilliant responses! I too am in the same boat of cost benefit ratio. It's also a gamble too, and after turning in my first set of coins and my own personal values on gambling, it doesn't sit well with me. As JP notes, your mindset going into this must be made up and hopefully for a good reason. That liquidity factor is very helpful. Like, the last 1966 SMS 5C DCAM MS68 sold for $9,700. That's why I made sure my coin matched their top winner of beat it. Honestly, I went into this wanting to beat out all those MS68's with all their scratches and missing steps even on an SMS strike which should be starting point #1. Since all SMS are supposed to have full steps why are thousand dollar coins lacking that and getting MS67/+? I'll be happy once it's all over.

Oh and welcome back too! I just started back up as well.

Joe, SMS are BS coins and most are not full steps. Proofs are considered full steps when submitting so they do not mark them with a FS on the label. I wish you well on your submissions getting a MS 68 with any nickel is a real ta-do.