powermad5000

Nice cent Coinbuf! 

On 2/9/2023 at 7:38 PM, bobbyboshay said:

Look at the coin all these opinions no one mentions anything about the rim alignment with that being said I appreciate everyone opinions but did anyone with there predictions look at the alignment no because no one interest in the coin but concerned about the coin not being real I want you to give a opinions on the coin not worrying about it the one help the community with others issues with the coin who care if it the one or not keep in mind it’s just a Penny 1 cent uno that’s all so when you express giving information look at the coin and talk about it not how much someone don’t know this and that did you ever think I don’t have the answer that why I posted so with that said since all the coins Guru said it’s not the one can we talk about other issues going on with the coin since you took the time out to use some much Brain energy up on nothings tried to find something about the coin other then the weight so the community can learn thanks to all the high priest for you expert opinion  wow all this conversation over 1 cents it’s a Penny guy  

Bobby, it took me about two seconds to look at your 1 cent and the scale reading to know the slight misalignment of the strike is well within mint tolerance and would have nothing to do with the weight of the original struck planchet. Your scale is far from accurate as others have stated in this thread. What is insulting to us is that you made a post to ask opinions about a coin you featured and upon getting those opinions you have instantly become defensive and combative. That has no place in this forum. Most of the members in this forum are well seasoned and quite knowledgeable about this hobby. Have some respect.

https://www.ngccoin.com/coin-dealer-locator

Found it on a search. There is a button to click on the page to find dealers that assist with submissions and locate them in your area. Maybe you could work out a deal with one of them.

Kyle, if you say you spent a lot of money on having the coin looked at by many people and still have this agony over it, I have an idea for you that might work to end your restlessness. I tried to look where the email went, but I couldn't find NGC's email about a listing of NGC submitters across the country, so maybe someone else has this and could help. The point I am trying to make here is maybe you could find an authorized NGC submitter and work out a deal to submit just one coin lumped in with others submissions so maybe you wouldn't even have to pay the shipping to get it there and back, just the submission fees. Another way you could do it is to take it to one of the bigger coin shows where NGC takes submissions in person and you could at least save the shipping to them.

Just throwing some ideas out there as I am sure we would all like to know the real deal and how the story ends.

There has been evidence of cutting coins in half in the past. There have been several "hobo" trade dollars for sale on eBay that were cut in half, hollowed out and had an internal hinge put inside to hide "stuff" inside the coin. Agree this is a magician's coin. There are also modern magicians quarters made with either two heads or two tails. Not worth submitting.

Spots on the obverse and rim look like whatever is on the surface is either partially worn off or environmental hasn't finished completely covering the coin. Have you tried to rinse it under just plain water to see what happens to it? From your photos, I see something in the environment the coin was in that caused a change to the surface. I think a true alloy change in the planchet would produce a uniform color across the entire surface.

Hello Eli! Welcome to the hobby and thank you for your service!

I have been collecting coins for 40+ years and I still have a lot to learn but it has been a rewarding and fulfilling experience for me. I agree with the others, before investing or worrying about buying or selling, read legitimate books and turn off YouTube (except the ANA videos which are very informative). Get used to checking out what you get in pocket change. Get used to mintage numbers. Get used to inspecting coins. I say keep your examples in your photos and when you learn more about rarities and grading then you will see your progress and you will then let those coins go but you will understand why.

This hobby does something different for everyone. I began by collecting the oldest coins I could find. Worn Morgans, cull Large cents, Indian heads, and Buffalo nickels. I later learned the ins and outs for myself and my collecting style. I also ended up getting a job that pays real dough and started into collecting higher value coins and higher end coins and spread out all over the place into Trade Dollars, half cents, Franklins, Mercury dimes, Seated Liberty Half dollars, Three Cent Nickels, Two Cent pieces, Capped Bust half dollars, and on and on. With all came pieces of knowledge. I am now comfortable going to coin shows and shopping out raw coins to submit. None of this happened overnight though. You are starting out so get some good books and refer to the price guides and the coin explorer on NGC. A 10X magnifier is fine. Maybe a scale that weighs out grams to two decimal places. Use these to inspect your pocket change which doesn't cost you a thing so you become familiar with inspecting and self grading. 

One thing to take away from my comment is you collect what you want and how you want and nobody can really tell you it is wrong. Keep that penny. And like I said, when your knowledge expands, you will one day let it go but you will understand why it is ok to let it go.

Just my humble opinion.

If I may interject, the scale you are using is a cheap pocket scale. I owned three of those scales and all went to the recycler because the weights they were displaying were not accurate. You can check to see first if your scale is properly calibrated but you may benefit more by taking your coin to a coin shop or jeweler with a quality, accurate scale and getting a real reading to two decimal points. I think you will have your question answered at that point.

Great video Eagle! Thanks for sharing it!

What disturbs me about the coin you presented as yours in the photo is the lower portion of the hair on the obverse. On the genuine examples (and I zoomed in on my 1879 Vam3 Capped CC) is the lower hair on your coin is "disconnected". There are gaps at the very base of the hair and on the genuine examples, the hair is raised all across the bottom. Most notably on your coin is in the area near the second star on the right of the 9. 

If I may offer my very humble opinion, as I have sent hundreds of coins over the years to NGC for grading and learning from my mistakes and sometimes sad results, I would hard pass on that at 10K. Obscure TPG slabs with inflated grades are something to stay away from unless you can determine its grade yourself. Having tested some less value coins in obscure TPG slabs, cracking them and submitting them to NGC has led to two to three points less in grade level. From your photos which is all there is to go on, I would put this one at AU level.

The other thing to note is when submitting it is important to remember the rim is part of the coin and needs to be considered when selecting coins for submission. I have gotten back several descriptions on my return slabs which all became part of my learning experiences. For rim issues, I got back details grade followed by these (ugh) descriptions : Rim damage, Repaired, Mount Removed (as in the coin being previously used as a piece of jewelry), and Rim Filed. I am relaying these experiences I have had as the spot on the rim of the coin in your photo, for it being on a gold coin which basically should not erode, something is definitely wrong in that area, and with the amount of $$ involved in the transaction, I would continue my search for a better specimen.

Thank you for the information! That had crossed my mind, but I appreciate the official description on how that can happen.

From my hundreds of submissions to NGC, overdates, DDO, DDR, and RPM do not get assigned a label of Mint Error. That said, I own several overdates that are also not listed as varieties. I enjoy having these pieces as they are different from the norm. However, I know these overdates do not command much over common values. In cases such as the 1942/41 mercury dime overdate where there is high demand and low surplus, there is an obvious premium over the normal values. I am not sure exactly how new varieties get established and/or recognized, and maybe someone else on here could shed some light on that subject, but I would say it takes more than a single specimen for a variety to become recognized and established. As an example, on your coin, I would say if you submitted it with the extra $18 for variety plus, it would come back as 1950/50 but I doubt you would find it listed as a new variety.

While I agree with the others that a photo of the full face of the coin would be helpful in determining a true DDO, I also noticed the denticles right away as pointed out by Quintus Arrius. Based solely on your provided photo, my humble opinion is you have some type of overdate or RPM, and there was also possibly maybe ???? a minor or start of a die clash or partial die clash to make the secondary denticles? Also in my opinion, while you don't have something that is worth a substantial premium over established values, it is definitely different and would catch someone's attention when it came time that you decide to let the coin go to a new owner.

Question for the graders....I have many coins with curved clips or double curved clips as mint errors and can see how that would happen in the minting process. My question is when a coin has a straight clip, is there a way in the minting process that a coin could end up with a straight clip, or are all straight clips man made?

I would much rather buy a coin at a coin show or from a dealer so I can inspect it in hand, but certain coins are only going to be sold at online auctions and even the big auction houses allow proxy internet bids to compete with actual human beings in the room. If the seller has a rarely seen for sale coin and decides to sell it online, that may be the only way to get it unfortunately.

I also forgot to mention one other turn off for me when buying coins on the internet. The more adjectives used in the description to describe the coin make me want it less. The coin should sell itself.

Descriptions stating how ULTRA RARE MEGA SUPER PQ TOP POP MASSIVE COLOSSAL BU MS++++++++++++++++ WOW LQQK ********************BEST EVER KING MUST OWN UNBELIEVEABLE PERFECT LOOKS PROOFLIKE NONE BETTER (add whatever else descriptive word you want) make me not want to buy.

I just saw this post and tried to find the listing but I was unable to locate it. I did find another 1901 O Morgan from what I believe to be the same seller listed as #6049. If so the seller seems reputable. From your photos I would risk saying it is genuine. It is always a chance when buying a coin over the internet and not having it in hand to put it through the paces and weigh it on your own scale.

If I may share my buying policies on internet purchases, especially eBay, I follow my own set of rules. I have only had one fail for Altered Color years ago when I began collecting higher end coins and did not know that was something being done to coins to artificially enhance them.

1) Photos - In this day and age with the cameras on phones these days, and digital cameras in general, there is no excuse for poor quality, blurry, or poorly lit photos. Any seller trying to sell with poor photos is a hard no for me. Also, just one photo of the obverse and one of the reverse is not acceptable to me for raw coins. In addition, sellers who do not allow the zoom feature to be enabled in my opinion are hiding something and that is also a no for me. The other thing I look for is enhanced or juiced photos. If a seller has alot of coins for sale and they all look the same or similar in every photo, their photo editing should make you not want to buy. There are sellers who make every coin in their photos look like it was just coined by the mint. If the coins do not have a "natural" look in the photos, i.e. minor scratches, dings, typical surface for the details, I also will not buy them. Stock photos are also a hard no for me. You will not get the coin in hand that is in the photo.

2) Seller - The sellers numbers are a good indication. Is their feedback 99 or 100 percent? Check into their feedback before buying. Also, the number of feedback plays a role for me. I understand that every seller has to start at zero, but ones with zero feedback who are trying to sell say an 1893 S Morgan as their first sale is big red flag. Ones with a return policy are most likely legit and safer to buy from. Having tons of coins for sale is not a good indicator for me. Even a large seller can miss that they are selling a non genuine coin, but typically they also have the same return policy so the risk is very low you will be out your money if a coin ends up being non legit. Other sellers with massive numbers of coins for sale can "hide" fakes in their inventory so it helps to be familiar with the coin series you are looking to purchase. Of course, there are sellers such as Heritage Auctions and other larger auction houses that are already reputable that you can purchase from with no worry. Any seller listing in quantity is also a no for me. That also means I won't be getting the coin I see in the photo.

3) Coin - Expanding your knowledge is probably the most important. The more you learn and know, the less likely you are to get taken advantage of. Deals too good to be true are huge red flags. Low mintage number coins offered for immediate sale for "cheap" are a bad idea. Take your time! Scammers want to make a quick sale and then disappear. If your mind and your "gut" are trying to tell you something isn't right, it probably isn't right. Look at tons of the same coin before you buy. If you are used to seeing the same details over and over it helps "train your brain" to notice when something isn't right. Review what problems coins have. Worn coins that look shiny are polished or improperly cleaned. Copper cents can have artificial color so note that worn examples are probably not going to be smooth red in color. Environmental damage can be used to hide a fake. Take your time to look over every detail including features such as the denticles, shapes and placement of lettering and numbers, features known for that coin series, and evidence of alteration such as removal of mintmarks or changes to numbers in the date.

Once you get the coin, check everything. Make sure it was the one in the photos you saw. Check the rims for a coin that has been cut. Weigh the coin on a good scale. Go over all the same details with the best magnifier you can. Check it against another coin of the same type you know is genuine in a side by side. Anything that doesn't add up should cause you to either immediately return the coin, or take it to an expert for a second opinion.

Even the best of us coin guys can get burned, but to me having a structured set of buying rules can limit your risk of making a bad purchase.

Thank you so much for your input and query to the seller Just Bob!

It just punched me in the face when I first looked at it. It is possible then the seller had no clue what he was selling. I just could not stop myself from reporting especially when I saw someone had a $900 bid on it.

I am actually glad the seller did respond at least in what seems to be in good faith. Yes, I received an email that the listing was down.

Thanks again for what you did Just Bob! 

Terrible. Seller is heaosb9689.

An 1880 O Morgan Dollar. It was not in the greatest shape by any means, but I could not escape the iconic design of both the obverse and reverse.

Counterfeit coins chat board. Page 2. Counterfeit 2 cent pieces. December 11, 2020.

To be clear, I never presented myself as the be-all-know-all-expert of coins. I simply stated that I was able to find a couple counterfeit coins being sold by that seller that someone without the knowledge would not have known. As for the trust no one part of the post, should we not weigh and inspect coins we buy and just buy blindly from anyone? Sure there are good, honest sellers on there (I am one of them), but is there not a chance at all no matter how small that even a trusted experienced seller somehow maybe missed something and has a coin that is not genuine? Should we quit weighing and checking? I was just trying to help the newcomers to this hobby (sure maybe a little sternly) to try to start out on the right path. But, if everyone wants to jump down my throat and make it out that I am a bad guy for what I said, you stick to your opinions and I'll shut up then. 

Mr.Bill347 you would be able to find my previous post about this seller with photos of the two different 2 cent pieces they were selling that were really bad counterfeits on the chat boards here under counterfeit coins. You may have to scroll back a bit in the threads as that was several years ago. I reported the listings to eBay, but I never saw the listings get removed. I was a little disappointed in eBay at that.

Alex, I am not concerned with what scammer that can read what I say about them. All I will say to them is, truth hurts doesn't it. When those of us with the eye and knowledge to know something is not genuine, do this hobby the greatest disservice by not reporting, and not saying anything about it. Remember when you started out? Remember when you didn't know much except which denomination looked like what? Would you not want someone to steer you away from a scammer who is on the take?