powermad5000

We can argue about impaired proofs all night, and you have a case on that end, but I still don't see your coin being a proof. I don't think the strike is commensurate with the strike of a proof Morgan.

I do think the coin was struck from worn dies and the OP thinks incorrectly that effect is a broadstrike. What I do see that nobody has mentioned, I think there is quite a set of depressions on Abe's cheek, next to his eye, and a large one on his head and hair. That looks to be struck through to me as the design in the hair is still present. I doubt this was struck from rotated dies. I have not really seen any of these cents with a rotated die error and I think the modern presses have dies with a pin or keyway to keep the dies from rotating if I am not mistaken.

I am not even seeing a strike through. I see some damage and staining and I think the area the OP is referring to is the plating starting to bubble up near the rim and will eventually chip off. I see this cent developing severe zinc rot in the near future. It also could just be the photo, but I think the obverse around the date and mintmark has split plate doubling.

Hello and welcome to the forum! I think this is a vise job. Another coin was pressed into this one which explains why it is also bent.

Same. I see a pretty deep gouge with displaced metal around the edges. Post mint damage.

Most certainly not a proof. The details would be crisp, especially in the hair and the eagle on the reverse. It would also have more contrast and frost. There were only 930 proofs struck for this year. Your coin shows signs of a normal strike although probably struck from a recently changed set of dies. There were limited proofs struck and back when they were struck, unlike today, I seriously doubt a collector would have put their Morgan proof into circulation.

I have a hard time with the answer to this question being what do we define as a collector? Is not someone who bought a Whitman album when the statehood quarters were released and filled such said album as they were released, now having a full statehood quarter album not a collector even if they have collected no other coins? I think they would be considered a "casual" collector. It would be difficult to pin down a number on these people as they will never submit a single coin to a TPG, nor will they ever attend a coin show, but by technical definition are still a collector. You also have amateur collectors, experienced collectors, and advanced collectors. These would comprise a number that could possibly be pinned down through submissions (but not all collectors submit and I am sure there are still many collectors with extensive collections that are raw). I would say there is a high percentage of casual collectors which outnumber greatly the amateur, experienced, and advanced combined. To me, it would be impossible to accurately assign a specific number to the posted question.

Back to the question at hand and topic of this thread, I will throw out a different tack. I put this back at 1960. By 1960, the cent had firmly established mintage numbers in the billions and combined P and D nickels, dimes, and quarters were all in the hundreds of millions. Even the Franklin half was in the tens of millions combined P and D. To me this puts numbers so high that basically anyone could have a great specimen of each denomination and obtained at face value, thus where I think I would call it the beginning of the era of moderns.

Yes. It is bad. NEVER clean your coins! Also understand that while you may have received a coin, any coin can be cleaned and any coin with a number of decades of circulation has a chance of it being cleaned long before you obtained it. I personally don't think the coin in this thread was cleaned. The copper plating doesn't necessarily turn chocolate brown all at once.

Stick around here. You will learn a lot! I enjoy learning here.

It is quite relevant. Once a coin has achieved MS status, it is considered as not having any wear. MS is where the number of bag marks, scratches, hits, and other imperfections are scrutinized and counted. And it also depends on the series once again. Take Morgan dollars for example. There are none graded MS 70. There is a few dozen or so graded MS 69. There is a few hundred or so graded at MS 68. For most collectors MS 67 is all they will be able to afford to collect and at that grade level they are fantastic. MS 66 of any coin will be only a few minor scratches and MS 67 will maybe only have two very minor imperfections or typically only one. MS 68 will probably not have any visible imperfections in the fields or main details with a small scratch hiding somewhere on the coin and literally comes down to the quality of the strike (and I am sure some will say mint luster). ALL grading has to take into account the entire coin. That is the obverse, reverse, details, fields, and the rim and edge. A coin with a reeded edge with a crushed reed should appropriately get lowered a grade point. Rim dings must be taken into account as coins with significant rim dings or dents in the rim or edge can end up with a Details grade for Rim Damage. When I am self grading coins, I always try to keep in mind all the things that earn a coin a Details grade. Mostly because I try to avoid buying impaired specimens, but it helps me to check all aspects of the coin including the rims and edge. Not an exhaustive list, but a list of the more common issues that get a coin Details graded are whizzed, polished, wheel mark, rim damage, bent, scratched, corrosion, cleaned, spot removed, environmental damage, repaired, tooled, holed, altered color, and less common would be mount removed. Plated and altered surface will get returned in a body bag along with authenticity unverifiable or not genuine (counterfeit). When self grading any coin, everything is important and everything needs to be taken into consideration.

Hello and welcome to the forum! It looks to me like it possibly had some plating blisters to begin with that actually broke open exposing the zinc core to rot in agreeance with @Just Bob as is common with these cents having years in circulation and questionable history with exposure to environmental damage.

I think you have a VAM 5 which is a Micro O and is typically scarce for this year and mintmark. I appreciate the collage and full photos. Much better than most people post!

Hello and welcome to the forum! I think it is an impaired proof. Looks like maybe it has some environmental damage since it is just plain loose and not even in a cardboard flip. There were over 1.2 million proofs made for this year and I think you could locate a much better example already graded for probably less than you will spend to submit this coin to have it slabbed. On the scale of proofs, this would be on the low end as it is not even Cameo or Ultra Cameo. And if you submitted this coin and it returns as Proof Details, basically all of its value will have gone out the window and your grading costs will all be a loss.

The Lord was trying to tell you that you need to repent!

Hello and welcome to the forum! I simply cannot provide comment on your coin based on the uncropped and too blurry photos. I don't want to jump on the S bandwagon when it could be a filled D from a broken post. The photos are too far away and too blurry for me to be able to tell.

No need to apologize. Questions from the simplistic to the complex need answers as they are questions. One thing I recommend to you is to get a copy of the book titled ANA Grading Standards for United States Coins, 7th Edition. This book covers most series with photos of each typical grade in the Sheldon Scale (MS 60, AU 50, XF 45, XF 40, etc.). This can help when you are undecided about a specific coin. What cannot be replaced in my opinion, however, is looking at TONS of coins already graded. This takes time. And I agree with @The Neophyte Numismatist that you need to become familiar with the nuances of each specific series of coin to be able to recognize specimens weakly struck which is different from wear and what pieces that are sharply struck and are gem BU. One thing I have used over the years to help me is to compare the coin I am wondering what the grade is to either a known gem BU or a Proof if that is all that there is to go on. Granted proofs are produced differently and should have superior details, but they can be used to refer to the image on the coin and what it is supposed to look like. Sometimes on that comparison it becomes evident the coin in question is a much lower grade than initially thought. I also don't refer to luster in and of itself when determining grade. While high grade coins usually have nice white color on silver coins, I have also seen some Morgans and some Mercury Dimes and some Franklin Halves with heavy blue or black toning that have amazing grades. Grade to me is about the original surface, how pristine and mark and scratch free it is for the MS grades. Once a coin has wear, to me it becomes a little easier to determine grade when observing the typical spots of wear on the highest points of the design. Hopefully this answer helps some.

I agree with both of these statements. Monticello almost seems like some of it got chewed off. On the first one, it is MAD, but just be aware it is not misaligned enough to grade as an error. NGC won't classify a coin as MAD unless it is far enough off that parts of the design are missing or incomplete such as half of some lettering or missing lettering or date numbers. I like it though!

The additional pics were helpful. I don't think I need to elaborate more as the reply from @Sandon covers much more than I would have delved into. Also I noted, the back of the slab looks like it is covered with some ick. It would probably be good to clean that off.

I would contact the seller directly and explain the situation and inquire about the status of the item and make it known you are willing to buy.

I wonder if the seller blocked you for the "trouble" on his end having to cancel the order. Some people would rather block than make a sale. I just signed out of there and checked an non numismatic order I made on Sunday. My address is ok. I wonder exactly how that happened. I know to change it yourself you have to go through many different tabs and pages just to get there. I'd be demanding an answer from their customer service. Sorry to hear this happened to you. Especially if you lose a coin because of it. I know how that feels just from getting outbid. I think it would feel even worse over some mechanical/computer error.

Hello and welcome!!! As I have submitted many error coins to NGC, they will accept and slab a no date coin in the case if it is a mint error. A non error coin with no date will not get graded. I submitted a Lincoln Wheat cent struck through a capped die and the obverse was basically obliterated completely. Even Abe was basically mush. I have included a photo of this slab in my reply. Since I filled in and sent in paperwork done by hand, I did what NGC uses for errors missing one or two digits of a date. I entered the date as 19XX as all Lincoln Wheat cents start with 19. Seeing as you are doing this in an online fillable form, you could try something similar as far as the date goes or try all X's. You could also if you know what type the coin is, just select any year from the series. The graders will know what to do with it. This question should be presented in the Ask/NGC section of the forum and you will get a better answer directly from customer service.

Hello and welcome to the forum! It depends on how important the original packaging is to you. If you absolutely must have it in the original packaging, you should wait to buy one with that packaging. If it is not important to you, not knowing what happened to it and that the coin "raw" could potentially be counterfeit, you would be better off to buy one already graded. Another thing to keep in mind while talking about counterfeits, even if the coin has original packaging, being you are new at this, I would make sure you buy it from a reputable seller such as APMEX who guarantee the coin is genuine and who will have checked that the original packaging has not been tampered with. One other thing to note, once a coin has been removed from its original packaging, it has been exposed to the environment and also possible future issues from being handled raw. If it were me, I would want to get a coin such as this in original packaging from a well known reputable seller that has a guarantee that all the coins they sell are authentic. Joe Blow on eBay might have sold lots of coins, but might not be a well known reputable seller with a guarantee of authenticity for every coin he sells.

Genuine. Normal circulation cent. Large date. 6,012,979,368 were made. Extremely common.

While mintage number plays a primary role in rarity (the less made the harder it is to find), in my opinion it depends on the type, and also the grade in that type. Modern issues will mostly grade very high, making high grade not a factor in rarity. That is where mintage number plays its role. On older coins such as Morgans, mintage number plays only part of a role. Take an 1884 S Morgan for example. For the series, it has a somewhat high mintage number in the series at 3,200,000. Being they were all released for circulation, there are tons of circulated examples, but the coin becomes increasingly rare in correlation to grade. An AU 55 lists for $525. AU 58 for $2,200. And MS 60 for $9,000 with each next higher grade becoming commensurately more expensive due to the lower amount of them at each higher grade level. Going further back to early coppers, survivability plays more of a role. There are some types that had significant mintage numbers per se, but the survivability of some makes them rare when there are some with less than 100 known survivors. I don't think demand necessarily correlates to rarity as much as it does to market value. If there is a coin with 100,000 made, but for whatever reason is insanely popular with people to the point where they hoard them, sure they become hard to get, and sure they become more expensive, but their mintage number remains. To me, true rarity exists where there is only one or two or maybe 5 of a particular coin. If there is only one, that means only one collector can have it. Take an 1885 Trade Dollar Proof as an example. Only 5 were made. It is so difficult to get most collectors call it uncollectable because they will never get a chance to own one. Or a 1795 Jefferson Head Lettered Edge Large Cent. Only 3 are known. With that few known, grade is not the factor. It is nearly impossible to obtain one. That to me is what makes something truly rare. Something with so few you will pretty much only get to dream about it.