powermad5000

Hello and welcome to the forum!

I think what you may be seeing is a flattening of the last 8 making it appear wider than normal, and it may just be me but there may be a small die chip at the top of the last 8 but that would not get this coin attributed the 1888/7 variety. I also do not see the necessary markers for that attribution.

Hello and welcome to the forum!

I am in the VF camp as far as the details on this coin. It appears to be genuine but attribution might be to solidify that as fact. I note some hits on the reverse, but of more concern to me is it might just be the photo (hard to tell without the coin in hand) if there is some rim damage, and I also would not rule out that the coin has been cleaned in the past and has retoned some. I would expect a details grade which will impact the overall value and drop it to somewhere in the F to VG range ($250-300). I also agree that this coin should be part of a larger submission as to not incur excessive costs compared to having it graded as a singular submission.

@WayneT9639, I just thought of something in the case of this coin. You stated you submitted under both Mint Error AND VarietyPlus. I was thinking about this, and I wonder if that possibly caused some confusion over at NGC (I personally have never submitted a coin with both of those boxes checked) for the graders. I am wondering if you had submitted this only as a Mint Error if it would have been attributed. There is no fee for the 1970 S either small date or large date attribution which means when NGC gets one, they will automatically assign the proper variety (small or large date). I have submitted when there is no fee without checking that box and the label has come back correct.

Just a thought.

On 6/4/2023 at 6:25 AM, Jason Abshier said:

 good news is there’s still kids interested in coin collecting

I pass a coin shop in downtown Chicago on my way every year to my annual physical so I always stop in. This year, there was a Dad and two daughters. The girls had to be about 7 and 9. The Dad knew nothing about coins and admitted it. The two girls however were asking about specific coins and specific grades. They were interested in late 30's Walkers and Washingtons. It was heartwarming to see and hear and reminded me of myself at that age taking my newspaper route money on my bike right to the coin shop in town and buying coins with it. I had to comment to the Dad that I started at their age as well and that they are into a good hobby. [And then I proceeded to buy myself an upgrade Morgan....LOL!]

There is still hope @Jason Abshier. It is unclear exactly when collecting began but there are collections documented from the late 1800's that have been sold. And there is interest in the hobby to this day.

I bought a Liberty Seated half dollar from the S.S. Republic Shipwreck. It is uncirculated but is simply labelled Shipwreck Effect. There is no grade offering on the label. I paid higher than price guide value basically for the provenance of the shipwreck, but also because the coin in the holder I bought was substantially less impaired than others being sold at the same time. The coin in the holder is uncirculated and has very minimal saltwater damage and the rest of the details are fantastic. If the coin was not ocean submerged it most likely would have graded as MS 65 (based solely on wear - it would be impossible to determine any distracting marks after the saltwater damage). There were other S.S. Republic coins up for sale at the same time I bought mine and the prices varied due to different levels of the ocean water damage to the surface of the coin as well as to the overall details of the coin. Not all the coins in the shipwreck were uncirculated. Some might buy the coin based solely on the shipwreck provenance, but it seemed to me that there was a wide range of prices due to the quality of the coin in the holder and how much damage it actually had.

I wouldn't worry about that. Threads just kind of trail off once the issue raised in the beginning gets resolved. I would leave the thread for others to read in the future.

I have always submitted in these flips (and stored some coins in certain cases). The photo is from Amazon. There are many other sellers of these on eBay (Wizardcoinsupply probably has the lowest prices) and you can find them also at some Hobby Lobby locations as well as local coin shows.

Hello and welcome to the forum!

If I am not mistaken, NGC will grade the individual coins in a proof set and attach a special label numbered 1-5 (or 1-6 in those sets) and it will list the individual grade of each coin in the set. I do believe though they are still going to charge you the fees as if each coin was submitted in an individual flip, meaning you are not going to get any price break or reduction for submitting them in the OGP. That being the case, if you were really set on sending the whole proof set to get graded, I would not crack it out of the OGP, but I would submit it as is. That will reduce on the possible mishandling (or any handling at all of individual coins) or possible damage to any of the coins by removing them from the proof set case. I am not sure how to do that from a submission standpoint as I have only ever submitted raw singular coins so you would want to call NGC beforehand to ask how you fill out the paperwork properly.

That said, I do agree with @World Colonial. In order for it to be worth the fees, you would have to be confident that the grades returning (imho) would have to be a minimum of PF 69 or PF 69 Cameo or Ultra Cameo (imho PF 68 would not be high enough as there were proof sets a plenty made). There were 3,041,506 proof sets issued in 1968. Of all those saved proof sets, you are going to have to achieve a very high grade for the coins to have value in the marketplace (imho PF 68 would be a common grade). Also be aware that just because they are sitting in a proof set case and were specifically and specially placed in the OGP, that does not mean they are perfect coins. Just in the process of making that many proof sets, only those of the beginning of the run when the dies were fresh will have the best strikes and finish, as well as there being the possibility of the mint employee mishandling a coin before it got put into the OGP.

On 6/3/2023 at 1:37 PM, PastorKen said:

I'll try but asking questions don't mean your stupid

I came on here with 40+ years in the hobby. I started asking questions. It became apparent very quickly how much some of the members on here know and how little I actually did know. I am sure those on here could have easily labelled me as "stupid", but they did not. As it goes, that term really doesn't apply here. I would say in this hobby it is more "uninformed" as it is important to ask those questions to advance your knowledge. I myself have never been afraid to ask anything of anyone, because to me it is the only way to learn something you do not know. And this forum is the place to come to learn the true facts. The volunteers on here truly want to help advance the hobby.

It is not possible for a broadstrike to affect only one side of the coin. Your coin is fully broadstruck just well centered as @EarlyUS.com noted. Other than the partial staining on the obverse and some small spots of possible environmental damage on the reverse, the details of the coin are excellent for a broadstrike. 

I received the emails about this (and still am). I looked into it, but I didn't see any advantage to buying anything there that I couldn't find on eBay and probably for less. I would like to say I found the whole thing to be "marketing gimmicky".

One glance at the eagle and I immediately knew it was a counterfeit and a very poor one at that. It only maybe half resembles a legitimate specimen. The lettering is off and not the right font. The sun and rays are all wrong. I hope you didn't pay a lot for it. In fact, I hope you didn't pay anything for it.

That is awesome @WayneT9639!!!!!

I am highly unsure of the fate of my collection. I literally have no one to leave it to that wouldn't immediately sell off the whole thing for way less than they could get for it, take all the money and blow it all on something stupid, and then there would eventually be nothing. I hope your plan works out!

I took a picture of the reverse of your slab with my phone and used the editing software to rotate the reverse. It came up as 16 degrees. HOWEVER!!!!!, I am taking a picture of a screen of a picture of a slab. To be accurate I would need the coin in hand. That said, I would say it is close to being 15 degrees.

The thing is, the coin, albeit in good condition, is not even worth the slab it is sitting in. At the grade it is, in the price guide it is listed at $12.50 and we all know you typically don't get the actual price guide figure when selling a coin. Submitting this for a regrade (which risks them still not attributing it as a mint error), would be throwing good money at naught.

How much did you think the coin would sell for if it were attributed as a mint error for rotated dies? As someone who has more than a handful of mint errors, I can tell you the coin if attributed in the holder would sell at auction for around $20-$30. Lincoln cents have tons of errors from 1909 to date. Everything from broadstrikes, rotated dies, capped dies, off center strikes, combination errors, brockages....some of the same collecting rules apply here. Now, if you had a 1909 S VDB with a rotated die, you could get insane amounts of money for that one cent. At a mintage number of 693,192,814 cents made as 1970 S, with rotated die not being some "fantastic" error, there will be little demand for such a specimen.

Not to be mean but to be realistic, for your 7 figure plan, if you are chasing after cents like this, you will never get there. You would need to get into coins of demand, those of scarcity and those of extremely high grade. Common Lincoln Memorial Cents are not going to get you there. I have roughly 460 slabs and I am not at 7 figures. I have about half of all the Morgans in grades from 62 to 66+ with many CC's and many Top 100 and Hitlist and Hotlist VAM's, I have uncirculated Trade Dollars, several large cents of XF and up grades, Two Cent pieces uncirculated, Flying Eagle cents in AU, Liberty Head Nickels in MS, Barber Quarters in MS, Walkers in MS, Mercury Dimes about a quarter of the series in MS 65-MS 66 FB....I have ALOT! And I am not at 7 figures. And I have been at this for 45+ years. I applaud your goal and I do hope that one day you can achieve it. I just want to say most of us who collect (and especially now those who submit as well), spend more than they make off of coins. And we will probably die without selling them, so I would hope you have someone you can pass the collection along to who will keep it growing. Even if you don't hit 7 figures, maybe the person you pass your coins to can.

I am surprised @EagleRJO that you didn't provide us cropped photos as well as the coin in the holder. It is hard to tell from just the pics in the holder.

I could only venture to guess that a description of tooled can mean more than just what NGC put in that description. I would say tooled also applies to the use of any tool to do any of a number of things to try to improve a coin that has some type of damage. Anything from damaged reeds, spots, using a tool to remove crud, repairing a hole, trying to put full split bands back on to a Mercury dime that has lost its full bands, fixing a bent coin, etc.

I have seen some specific NGC labels in the past such as Mount Removed, Obv (or Rev) Spot Removed, Polished, Obv (or Rev) Wheel Mark, Whizzed, Altered Color, and Altered Surface. I am wondering if the term tooled was a more generic term used in the past that isn't used as much anymore.

Hello and welcome to the forum!

Your coin has what we call PMD (post mint damage). In the case of your coin, it was environmental damage. Keep in mind that coins throughout centuries have been subjected to differing levels of environmental damage ranging from being stored improperly to being recovered from the ground or the ocean after a hundred plus years or more.

True errors are only attributed as such because they happen somewhere in the minting process and before the coin has left the mint. As someone new to the hobby, please avoid trying to get your numismatic education through videos on YouTube (unless they are made by the US Mint, NGC or PCGS, ANA, or ANACS).

I also recommend learning the basics of grading before venturing into the world of errors which is to me a subset of the hobby as mint errors are even graded slightly different than normal mint issues.

I don't officially collect tokens, but I got some Chicago store cards off eBay for very cheap. Some for $2. Most in fantastic condition. I did send one in my last submission to NGC as they actually had it listed in the price guide. I sent it to NCS to have it stabilized but it may be the one they did not do anything to because out of the five I sent for conservation only one was not conserved. I am hoping when it comes back it will be the top graded.

Sounds like some of my first submissions. I took those as a learning opportunity to improve my self grading (I did have several good coins in those submissions as well). Now when I submit, if I have a coin that comes back as cleaned I am usually caught off guard, and unless I intentionally sent a coin in that is AU or below, my submissions all come back straight graded MS. In fact, my last submission which is still there had my first time ever having a coin upgraded (I guess my 64 self assessed grade was too low so I'll definitely take that!).

The point I am making is to sit down with those coins you got back that you thought were a higher grade, look them over again (with a 10X magnifier or a loupe if you didn't the first time), and look at graded samples (eBay is a good resource to look at zooms of coins of the same year and type already graded) to see where you didn't get your self grading right. As for the cleaned ones, look for hairlines, look for the color to be off, or if the coin is too "shiny" but still having wear is another indication. There are other things to look for but that is the basics.

As your self grading improves, so will your submissions when you get them back. 

On 5/31/2023 at 5:04 PM, PastorKen said:

Also I hope I can continue to ask questions here ...lol

You can ALWAYS ask questions here. Most of the responses you get are from members who have been at this for decades and are savvy when it comes to the financial end of the hobby. Just remember that sometimes you have to take some responses you get with a grain of salt.

Hello and welcome to the forum!

If I am not mistaken, NGC always uses more than one grader regardless of the tier selected, and the coins are inspected by another grader after they are put into the slab and before they are returned to you.

I can say confidently, that selecting the economy tier does NOT mean the coins submitted are viewed as less than quality or as "junk" or "junkier". Most modern coins will never reach the $300 level but they are graded as top notch if the coin is. Also, you have some MS 65 Morgans say which are very nice coins but for years and mintmarks that are common will also not reach the $300 level. Remember, NGC has to stand behind their guarantee that every coin slabbed was put through unobjective grading to receive an accurate subjectival grade. If you submit a coin in the economy tier and NGC believes it to be worth more than $300, they will contact you via email and will move that coin into the standard tier as well as charging you the difference between the tiers. 

I do not know what PCGS does over there, as I do not submit coins to them, nor buy their slabs.

As for how NGC arrives at a coin's grade, I would guess they use typical ANA grading standards, possibly combined with their own set of standards as well.

Hello and welcome to the forum!

The only way your coins would be returned to you is if your form of payment is no good and NGC has no way to get paid for their services.

That said, it is important to get your submission paperwork in order and as correct as possible (note, I did not say critical). Do your best to self grade your coins and assess the value of each coin. Make sure you are entering the correct date and mintmark for each line and the correct numbers on each flip. When it comes to the value (should you undergrade a coin for some reason and yes it does happen), NGC will notify you via email of the change when they believe a coin is worth more than you state and will adjust that coin accordingly and charge you the extra difference to your credit card. This is the ONLY change NGC will make to your submission. Should you forget to check a box for Mint Error or VarietyPlus, the coin will be straight graded.

Once you submit your paperwork (or internet filing), and NGC receives your submission, even if you catch a mistake you made on it, NGC CANNOT and WILL NOT adjust your paperwork once it is received. Double check your paperwork before actually making your submission.

It may seem daunting, but once you have gotten into it, there is almost a rhythm to filling out the submission forms.

Good luck on your first submission!

I would say that is post mint damage from something (one could only venture a guess as to what). I do not think in the minting process that a coin could get a "start" of a curved clip and then the blanking machinery or dies said "OOPS!! OH NO! STOP!" The machine would have completed the clip.

I am in alignment with @Coinbuf on this one. There were TONS of these ASE's of the same year graded and slabbed. Unless that was something special given to you by someone special that you have some kind of sentimental attachment to it, sell it and buy an MS 70. Or another MS 69. To make that much fuss over what is essentially a bullion slab is just self punishment. 

I also think if that is the only imperfections on the entire coin, they gave it an MS 69 because it doesn't have enough marks or imperfections to give it an MS 68 grade and the grade is probably proper.

I have some German coins in my collection, but in order to be able to help you, I would need clear, cropped photos of both sides of each coin in question.

If I am not mistaken, it is the 1995 P that has a doubled die variety. I don't think there is a 1995 D doubled die variety. What I see on the coin is a bit of low level mechanical doubling but that's about it.

Additional note, there is a 1995 D FS-103 Doubled Die variety but is mostly pronounced in the the motto IN GOD WE TRUST. I don't see it on your coin. I have provided a photo from NGC VarietyPlus for reference.