ColonialCoinsUK

Thankyou all for your thoughts and as most of my collection is raw coins in VF/EF I tend to agree - the 1801 on the pic is not remotely mint state but it is not far from being the finest that I am aware of. There have been a number of 2 reales collections to appear at auction over the last few years, date runs are extensive but not complete and almost all of the lots have been in VF with very few examples in uncirculated which means they were actually used on a day-to-day basis which I like - quality 8 reales seem to be more common as they tended to be used for trade and weren't subjected to so much wear and tear. Having started with British coinage 'named collections', including sixpences, are usually made up almost entirely of high grade examples and given the power of the Spanish Empire I found this uniformly lower grade surprising even though it was generally an earlier time period. An initial review of auction records suggests that lower grades overall is typical and any uncirculated examples really are rare with the final issues of Ferdinand VII giving the best chance of acquiring one in this condition.  To complicate matters further price guides/references do not usually highlight, or even take into account, the survival rate at all, or include a complete set of varieties that exist, for example the 1791/0 issue is not included so the full set is actually larger! 

Revenant, I totally agree - quite often it seems that I am the only one, or in a very small group, that is interested in certain varieties - die numbers on British Victorian coinage springs to mind, as most people do not even notice the small number above the date!

The concept that coins used to be made from silver or gold does seem to be a novelty to some although they often just get viewed as pretty scrap metal. On the other hand most people seem to have heard of Napoleon though so a coin with his bust on does get a flicker of recognition but that is about it.

Given the diversity of coins, banknotes, tokens etc there will always be something that people will have an interest in it is just finding it, it is great that your wife has now joined the community even if only in a small way!

My wife likes animals on coins - so I also have some modern pandas and lunar coins but I try and keep that quiet as they are less than a 100 years old  

Many congratulations, that will be great to clear the loans - it will certainly make it easier to sleep at night, even with little ones!

I have a few coins with these stickers on - it doesn't seem to make any difference to the prices though. Only a few of the US auction houses even mention it in the listing and most do not, particularly in Europe - I guess people just do not know what it means , everyone seems to know about CAC on US coins though.

On 2/13/2020 at 10:34 PM, Iceman said:

Thank you...It took a long time to complete to its present completion. I have Carlson's little book and it doesn't say much about them and we need to put something more comprehensive and up to date about Icelandic coins. Krause is no help either and it doesn't reflect the rarity or scarcity of any of the coins in the Kingdom Era. I have a publication in German that is no help either and I have been toying with the idea of putting together a small book about this Era of Icelandic coins I even have the Icelandic publication put out by the National bank of Iceland and they are not much help ...I have found some unpublished varieties and a few other things that are not in any books that I know of ...I might have some time in the next six months to devote To this....    

Sounds like a plan and a project, it would be great to collate all the knowledge in one place to get a good understanding of the real situation as this would be of immense value to collectors and auction houses everywhere.

Big happy birthday to Sam, he looks a happy chap!

On 2/10/2020 at 1:50 AM, deposito said:

I want one of those Louis Napoleon Netherlands Ducats from when he got to be their King.  I believe there are gold coins available also of the other Bonaparte brothers; Joe of Spain and Jerome of Westphalia.  I have never handled one or tried too hard to get one, but that could be considered a bucket list.  I have never seen any but the Louis of the Netherlands coins at any auction I watched; 1807 I think is a fairly available date?

As for slabbed coins increasing in popularity in Europe, and European / world coins increasing in popularity worldwide and in the USA, I can only hope so. I grew up with a coin collecting dad, and grandparents who hoarded pre '64 silver starting in 1964.  But it never occurred to me until I was in my mid 20's that I could get my hands on hundreds-of-years-old coins from the people and places that made up the history of civilization, much less in gleaming gold and silver.  We got coin world and he helped me buy indian cents out of it in the late 80s and 90s, and there must have been some ads for ancient or other coins.  Never crossed my mind.  When I first started getting silver Roman Republic denarii on ebay in 2005, my brothers doubted they were even real, and I think I did pick up a fake one.  Engaging in unlicensed psychology a bit, I will speculate that these very old, good looking coins are so damn cool they seem TOO GOOD TO BE TRUE.  If I'm right, then maybe the slabbing industry and the internet will conspire to ignite a wave of interest.  I think it should be more interest than US coins receive.  But, on the other hand, in the USA, it seems interest in history is pretty well snuffed out in my own and younger generations (besides as an excuse to be mad at someone and think you should get their bike)

1809 seems to be the date which appears most often for Louis ducats but having said that a 1810 is up for sale at the Kunker auction on the 20th March. The most common coins from Joseph are the silver 20 reales although the 80 reales in gold are available, the 320 reales are much rarer and way beyond my price range! The same now goes for Jerome's coinage from Westphalia as there seems to have been a recent big price increase in this collecting area with some spectacular coins/sets at the last Kunker sale (31st Jan- 2nd Feb where a gold 40 franks hammered at 65000euros!!!) aswell as the upcoming sale from WAG on the 15-16th February which has some very nice graded gold thalers. Unless I win the lottery I expect that Jerome's half-frank, which I already have, is likely to be the largest denomination I will now be able to afford!

Revenant, I used to pull shillings and florins out of change with my Dad, the latter being almost the largest coin in circulation after decimalisation in 1971 (the end of the half-crown) as here in the UK we didn't really have silver dollar sized coins in day-to-day usage even long before that so I guess I never really got to see many large coins and they just seem 'too big' to me. Patience I have but time is catching up with me

Iceman, your iceland collection is impressive and your knowledge on the subject must be extremely comprehensive and it wouldn't surprise me if 'The Coinage of Iceland and Greeland' by O. B. Carlson could do with an update as it was published in 1962! Price guides do seem to make many assumptions, particularly on the grades available, which as a collector you rapidly find out that reality can be very different and this coupled with the fact that many reference books for world coins seem to be from the 1960's and 1970's or may even just be the auction catalogue of a specific collection. Fortunately we have access to much more information today with auction records being on-line etc but it does take time to find and understand it.

CBC, as you say there are some very small coins out there and some are amazingly thin, Napoleonic 1/4 francs and Victorian Ceylon 10 cents spring to mind, and personally I find that when they are in slabs I do not worry about dropping them or losing them

Well done on successfully getting coins graded, particularly given the dates, as early European coinage will always be of interest as it is a fascinating and dynamic period of history. I find that there are so few graded examples of many world coins, more so for the earlier periods, that there is often no choice but to submit them yourself and I too spend time tracking individual coins back through auction catalogues! Surprisingly (or not!), apart from a couple of dates there are few of the Napoleon Netherlands ducats graded so I may well have to submit coins should I try and complete these sets. As you say there are more than likely good examples that have not made it to NGC or PCGS but until these appear for sale no one will know so it will be specialist collectors such as yourself that will be able to take advantage of the opportunities that this presents and form world class collections.

I agree that most European collectors prefer their coins raw however this appears to be changing rapidly particularly given the recent changes to the law regarding provenance and even the German collectors who seemed to be the most vocal against slabbing have now adopted the approach - for example there has been a massive increase in graded collections of coins of the German States at auctions such as Heritage. Even the German auction houses have started 'slabbing' coins for sale as it will make it easier to demonstrate where the coins have come from and when and as a result there are now increasing numbers of 'slabbed' coins available across Europe which already achieve a premium over raw examples. I expect that provenance and the increasing numbers of counterfeits will only make graded coins more popular and certainly easier to sell in the future - these are the main reasons that I started grading coins a few years ago.

As deposito highlighted 'numisbids' is worth a look, I also use 'sixbid.com' as that also covers many auction houses although the auction lot descriptions are not always in English so you may have to search holland and the netherlands and the numerous different ways of spelling William in several European languages! I find it is often quicker just to scroll through the auction listings.

I find 'transferwise.com' makes it easy and cheap to do bank transfers in many currencies as an interesting coin could appear anywhere in the world - I have bought from the US, Poland, France, Spain and Italy so far this year, they have also improved their bank transfers to Japan which seems to have an increasing number of quality European coins appearing (but be aware of extra charges when buying from Japan).

Good luck.

1925 is your best bet for a high grade George V sovereign as most of these are actually restrikes - all my George V sovereigns are 'just' bullion!

Revenant, in terms of your 10G set it may be worth contacting Schulman (Holland) and Kunker (Germany) as they often have quality examples, particularly Schulman who may also be able to find one privately rather than through their auctions - likely to be raw coins though!

deposito, fortunately I have a very good record with submitting coins for grading, usually MS62-MS65, although I did deliberately submit a couple of coins which I knew had surface hairlines and would therefore get a 'details' grade but as these were extremely rare the authentication was far more valuable and it is likely that none of the handful known would get a full grade. For example I bought a coin yesterday which appears to the finest by far of the 3 examples that I am aware of (none graded at NGC or PCGS), once I have the coin in hand I will decide whether it would be worth sending to NGC or not - as I do with most of my collection I may just keep it as it is hoping that a better one may be found over the next couple of decades or so!

Gary very interesting observations, there doesn't seem to be many clashes on British coins - or people just do not mention them!

I seem to be moving towards Spanish and Italian coins although from an earlier period, the Napoleonic era in particular as there, surprisingly, seems to be so much to discover. Can I ask how you get such good pictures?

Thankyou all for your comments. I have alot of experience writing and reviewing academic papers/reports and thus dealing with copyright and IP, although this is in a completely unrelated subject so much to learn!

The reference books I have typically use images from the authors own collection although more recent publications often include some images from both auction houses and the grading services, usually with a citation, so as suggested I will contact them regarding specific images. Having been spectacularly outbid at UK, US and European auctions over the last couple of months on a number of key coins for my own, not even remotely mainstream, collection of 'minors' the prospect of having the full set in several areas of interest has now evaporated. I expect a couple of these will be graded and appear at some point in Sets here so they did go to a good home.

The recent publication of an excellent book on the Gold Coins of Sweden noted it was the 'First on the Subject in Nearly 40 Years' and just highlights the lack of available detailed information on many world coins. Coinweek link is below:-

https://coinweek.com/world-coins/new-book-on-gold-coins-of-sweden-first-on-the-subject-in-nearly-40-years/

For the more classical collecting areas (gold and crowns) the most recent publication may be from the 1960's/1970's as was the case in this instance with almost nothing on the minor denominations at all. It would be great to produce a book such as the one on the Gold Coins of Sweden however I expect I will start with a much much smaller and niche remit, such as a single denomination and monarch .

Many congratulations, I have some Bahamas flamingo gold proofs somewhere, just as bullion really, they wouldn't come close to getting a 70!

I think the highest I have of anything is MS67 and just one of those - if my next submission all come back as VF/XF full grades I will be happy

Revenant, your 10G set is coming along nicely and nice examples of coins will always command a premium.

There are only three known examples of the coin I missed out on and it was the only one to appear at auction in the last 30 years, I am hoping it will prompt another one to appear! Another coin I missed was the only MS example with the other examples known (<5) all being VF or lower - surprisingly this situation is quite common for many world coins and I regularly find other examples. Here in the UK you can get credit cards with no fees and 0% interest for 12 or 18 months and I have used such a card in the past to buy a couple of coins, as a paid it in full by the end of the interest free period I was able to spread the cost of the coin - anything similar in the US?

I have given this much thought over the years, collecting coins has always been a hobby - the history and the academic numismatic challenge the main driving forces. As the collection, and hence its value, grew I have had to consider some of the coins as 'investments' hence the move to graded coins was important for me as the difference in 'value' between similar grades grew. With graded coins when the kids inherit the collection they are less at the mercy of dealers/auction houses where grades of EF, AU and UNC may all be given for the same coin and hence very different 'prices/estimates' as a result. With graded coins my kids can then look up prices online to get a good idea of the value and if a coin is sold at auction in an MS63 slab then the market will determine the value which is probably fairer.

Overall I would hope the collection at least maintains its value and my records suggest that holding for at least 20 years will hopefully see an increase - and hopefully I would have learnt something along the way.

I too have had 'slot score reduced' and I didn't understand the rationale behind this but as all collections in the same 'set' were effected equally then nothing was really lost. I have also had 'slot score increased' but to a lesser extent!

NGC obviously has a system for assigning scores and I have given up trying to work out what it is, it only loosely appears to be related to value or rarity within any one set and certainly bears no correlation at all between different sets, even from the same country. It used to bother me that larger, much more common coins scored more points than the often much rarer, and even more expensive, smaller denominations but for me the 'total points' value is meanlingless as the top World Collections are worth $millions so remain something to aspire to should I ever win the lottery. If World coin collectors are after 'total points' then they are probably best collecting the largest denomination gold they can, even modern bullion - for me the lifetime challenge of assembling impossible sets of smaller world denominations is much more interesting - but then most people think I am mad!

Iceman,

Congratulations on completing your Registry Set! I am not familar with the seigs catalogue - is this just a list of all the denominations etc, like Krause? As you now have a full set of the best examples of the coins maybe you should put together a book which not only includes newly discovered varieties but also some history and other info relating to the coins - this would be much more interesting and useful to a collector and is the sort of thing only a specialist could do. It still surprises me that such information is lacking for whole areas of world coinage and the more I look into it the more gaps there are - given I collect a wide range of things the problem is working out where to start!

World coins seem to be a bigger challenge than those from the US.

Any luck on getting the varieties given in McCammon on the label??

Revenant, very sorry to hear the latest, I know from experience little ones are very resilent and usually much tougher than their parents and I pray for Samuel's speedy recovery. All my best wishes.

My best wishes for the happiest outcome for you both.

Great set, tokens are very popular here in the UK although there are very few uncirculated examples available and even less graded ones.

Whilst my cousin was researching the family tree we found that my ancestors had released three types of tokens in the early 1800's as part of their businesses - so far I have only managed to find one and as you say 'the fun is the hunt' and I do check every auction listing to see if the other two are ever going to make an appearance!

Thankyou all for your comments.

Jack - fortunately I tend to buy at auction so my invoice will be from the sale of the named collection and as you say the recorded history of the coin will tend to start there. As I collect world coins and they are almost always in the raw state, and with Third Party Grading only just starting to gain acceptance here in Europe, it is more difficult to prove a provenance, for example the Charles I halfcrown I mentioned has a provenance that goes back about 150 years and this information certainly impacts its value so deposito's experience that NGC wouldn't just except the provenance given in the auction catalogue and that further research was required to support this was interesting - and sometimes justified! Fortunately I do have a lot of catalogues and spend much time tracking the history of individual coins so it would not surprise me if some collectors have extensive databases for their specialist area of interest and it would be a shame for this vital information to disappear, those collectors who are able to turn this knowledge into books and articles are invaluable to this 'hobby' of ours and deserve the greatest respect for their efforts.

Revenant, thankyou for the details of the Collection Manager, I haven't used this although I do already have all - well most of - the details on a spreadsheet, my current situation is the pictures are mainly restricted to my Napoleon and British sixpence collections which means the rest of the world remains to be done, unfortunately British, Spanish and French colonies covered a large portion of the globe meaning that this is not going to be quick. The bigger issue for me is that most invoices are on paper only and these will need to be scanned and linked to the spreadsheet entries. The same applies to the appropriate lot description in an auction catalogue as most of these are hard copy only (showing my age now) which I also need to incorporate somehow.

I hadn't considered that the TPG's may have liability concerns given they do, sometimes, add provenance to the label, and I would expect them to charge a 'low' fee for this electronic only listing, although this whole process would probably be more efficient if the auction houses did it en mass for each sale. As individual collectors we may just have to search the auction archives each time we make a new purchase however as I understand it the reach of the legislation, which was proposed to prevent the illegal trade in ancient artefacts, is actually much wider and is already causing issues for dealers (provenance, export permits etc) and people trying to sell items at auction, particularly inherited collections - hence my goal for 2019.

As my daughter has already decided that the collection is hers when I am no longer around (her brother did not get any say in this) the greatest challenge of all will be getting her to help!