zadok

occasionally, ncs n ngc dont get their billing data together, coins sent to ncs get processed n forwarded to grading n certification n the ncs charges show up as long as two months later, in my experiences with this they have just added to my next submission charges n not billed me separately, but i often have several submissions pending at the same time, still unfortunate for those not expecting the charges....

occasionally, ncs n ngc dont get their billing data together, coins sent to ncs get processed n forwarded to grading n certification n the ncs charges show up as long as two months later, in my experiences with this they have just added to my next submission charges n not billed me separately, but i often have several submissions pending at the same time, still unfortunate for those not expecting the charges....

truly unfortunate, but yes have had it happen to me twice before....once for additional fees due to correction of tier n another time because submission was shipped back in two segments because i didnt know how to mark the submission form correctly to have all coins returned together....id definitely call n make sure that their correction n additional charges were warranted.....

...interesting questions in an equally interesting area of US coinage, deserving of some interesting numismatic discussion rather than the normal baiting trolling n posturing that usually shows up here, most of the threads deteriorate rapidly into ego massaging n back patting or philosophical one upmanship or stupid attempts at humor....
but to add to ur questions...branch mint proofs (pre-1900) r a very specific area of collecting in a very shallow pool of collectors n almost always expensive n with very few examples known, most of the referenced issues in the ngc article most likely wouldnt meet strict current day definitions of proof issues, but due to their exceptional strikes surfaces n eye appeal r not the same as their normal every day circulation business strike cousins n therefore have received proof attributions, they r superior coins n do deserve some degree of status, perhaps special strikes or specimen strikes would be more accurate, but they r what they r n if attributed as proofs will probably remain that way...
...generally speaking, proof coinage is produced with specially prepared dies on specially prepared planchets n struck multiple strikes with additional pressure, doubtful that any of the 19th century branch mints could meet those conditions, however, there is ample evidence that specially prepared coins were struck at the branch mints for various reasons...presentations, commemorations etc etc....those coins deserve to be segregated n attributed as special, proof just probably isnt the most accurate numismatic word to describe them....specimen or presentation strikes probably more appropriate....the term proof wasnt actually used to describe coins early in the 19th century but as with most everything else attributions evolve n have a life of their own....in reality no one person can establish themselves as the definer of what is n what isnt, the numismatic collecting community will determine that for themselves...dont look for attrubuted branch mint proofs to be reclassified by collectors, tpg or auction firms anytime in the near future...
as far as reference books on the subject, there arent any really nor will there be, just maybe chapters in broader subject books....too expensive to generate n publish a book on such a narrow subject area n only a few buyers of said book...
ur '97-S PL is just that, very nice coin, but if u should compare it side by side with a '97 proof from the P mint u will see the differences.....again interesting area for discussion....

....custom registry sets, at least from my personal experience, are mostly like the proverbial government mule or forgotten stepchild, seldom visited and even less appreciated.....i know mine are rarely viewed, most of the views are my own....sort of out of sight out of mind....for the most part custom sets are for your own satisfaction and pleasure....they do provide great reference sources if they are well done and well documented....it mostly comes down to subject matter, if its something where there is decent interest you get decent visitation if its a very shallow interest community then shallow visitation and appreciation....

...would appear to be result of a planchet flaw....

...they already did that bout 300 years ago at sommer islands...bit pricey though...but very small collection few coins to buy...

...easiest n best resource to answer ur concerns would be vamworld....it has excellent diagnostic photos of the known die pairings for the '89-cc dollar...from ur photos it would seem the obverse dentils n the reverse cc mint mark r suspect....

...CAC "endorsement" can be beneficial in certain areas of US coin collecting....I wont go into that on this thread....but, most "old time" pure collectors rely on their own acquired grading knowledge to determine whether the coin they r considering buying meets their standards or needs, they don't require TPG or stickers or beans....after all, u know if the girl is pretty or not regardless of the dress she is wearing...

...I personally do not believe that MS letter is addressing any BU clad quarter collectors or circ Lincoln collectors....its all about the whales coming to eat the krill...

...just a few observations n comments, not intended to change anyone's opinions...everyone knows the published rules going in when they decide to participate in the registry n should design their sets accordingly, after all it is an ngc registry so a having 75% requirement shouldn't be a surprise...in a perfect world allowing both ngc n pcgs coins would be ideal n more representative of the most comprehensive sets, but the two registries r in competition n the slabbing of registry coins is money driven, don't for one moment think that the registries were conceived for the sole purpose of giving collectors a free feel-good experience...registries r vanity products n in almost all such vanity endeavors there is a price tag...the real fly in the ointment here is the cross-over issues, again money driven, plus the subliminal attitudes n biases of the tpg accepting each others grading...both barriers to the registry participant to cross-over his/her coins...yes, acceptance of both ngc n pcgs graded coins on an equal footing or more equitable cross-overs would make registry sets more meaningful, but don't hold ur breath...n this doesn't even touch upon the non-allowance of pcgs coins in world registry sets...so much to do n so little time...having rambled on bout these detractions, registry sets still provide beneficial outlets to many collectors, they r what they r...

WC thanks for expanding on ur rationale, yes I would agree that attempts to migrate the TPG efforts to a global acceptance would disenfranchise even more pure collectors n drive them from the numismatic mainstream...that's why many US collectors sold off their US collections n migrated to collecting the more interesting n challenging foreign issues, there was still opportunities to actually collect, I divested myself of approximately 80% of my US collections several years ago n found that I could get more bang for my buck n more collecting satisfaction in several of the foreign issues....im sure the heavily promoted TPG efforts will receive initial success but the more entrenched foreign collecting fraternities wont go along willingly...n eventually the pure investors will become disenchanted n go on to the next asset escalation, especially after the inflated prices collapse....the real issue here is collecting versus investing, sure we all hope we don't lose money if when we sell, but filling that last whole in ur album is as they say...priceless

...just an insight, mostly because its a dreary day and im bored, registry sets are in fact positive adjuncts to the numismatic hobby, they do not take away from or marginalize coin collecting in any way, they do in a limited way promote collecting, true both pcgs and ngc promote their respective registries and make supplemental money from those promotions due to the requirement that coins submitted must be slabbed and certified, hence more money in their tpg pockets...many if not most collectors that participate in registries have their coins certified anyway, the registries are basically free if u r already a member and pose no additional expense to the collector...seeing ones collections represented on a registry page is much like looking at ones collection in Whitman blue boards in the olden days, ditto filling that last slot on a registry page is like filling that last hole in the board...sure there is a sense of competition and completeness, neither a negative...the real aspect of registries that is most overlooked is the effort, commitment, professionalism and dedication to the collector by the staffs that administer and maintain the registries, to these individuals I salute u...VKB pooh-poohing the registries serves no purpose to himself, other collectors or the hobby...his comments will not prevent anyone from joining a registry nor cause anyone to leave a registry anymore than mine will...no one is forced to participate, its just a matter of personal choice and perhaps a sense of personal achievement and feeling good about your chosen hobby, not much these days offers such positive attributes.... 

fyi...the fractional purchases of stock shares available at the moment is not limited to just higher dollar stocks e.g.  Amazon or Berkshire, one can buy a fractional share in any stock on the exchanges, u can buy $1 worth of a $5 stock if u so desire...time will tell how this falls out but at present its gangbusters...

...FMV is not the sole determinate on whether any coin is worth the cost of getting certified/graded, there r various good reasons to have coins graded...one is to have the coins certified as genuine if they r of higher interest or collectability, another is to get a more precise determination of actual grade, in many instances a difference of 1-2 points can equate to multiples of the grading fees...using a threshold of $200-$250 to decide whether a coin should be graded is simply obtuse, the actual financial depreciation of the cost of grading is not determined by FMV its more determined by what one paid for the coin, the coin could have been a gift or purchased for significantly less than its FMV, hence the $22 grading fee is less consequential...in the instance being referenced, a 1921 Peace dollar, even in very low grades the coin routinely sells for $100+, it doesn't need to be au or unc to warrant the benefits of being graded...which was the point of my post to start with...not all coins r worth getting graded, pure bullion related coins or common date lower grade coins or coins valued at close to $25 certainly would not be worth the grading fees...if u purchased a coin for $250 that has a FMV of $250 n then pay a $22 grading fee n sell the coin for its FMV, yes u will realize a loss, but yes u r most likely not an astute financial wizard...the 1921 Peace dollar does not fall into these last categories n unless u happened to have paid FMV or more most likely warrants paying the grading fee...using a $200-$250 FMV as a cut off to determine whether a coin warrants grading is not a sound rule of thumb...

amen....I want the part with the bubblegum...

...fractional investors are just that, they r investors n they make little to no pretense to be collectors, even if they invest in a collectible...they invest in hopes they get a profitable return on their investment...horses per se have long been syndicated by persons who never see the horse, just give me my share of the winnings if there r any n my share of the stud fees or foals if that applies...multi-million dollar paintings, potential scientific discoveries, mineral deposits and yes even some baseball r also syndicated or fractionalized...some coins have been purchased by conglomerates/syndicates but to a far lesser degree, perhaps because the resale market is not easily predictable n also very shallow, also because so few coins lend themselves to the lofty prices necessary to syndicate...r coins analogous to financial assets, absolutely...coins if bought with a investment consideration r no different than buying any other speculative asset...r such coins dead investments, absolutely not...they r just dormant the same as a painting or rare stamp, after all all shares of stock r dead investments as well, they just have an open market on which they r reflected on a near daily basis, same with gold, coins more or less have trends rather than a market...as for fractional investment assets, all stock shares r fractional investments; however, we now have fractional investments in individual shares of fractional investments (robinhood) we shall see how this turns out...fractional investments in coins isn't likely to be widespread n most likely not exceptionally profitable, the coin spectrum just doesn't support a broad market base, but there r a few coins that could lend themselves to that level of speculation, the participants most likely wont be collectors, they just want a return on their investment...much like gm who invests in assisted living homes, he doesn't want to own a table , a wall, a bed, a wheelchair or a flower bed, he just wants a portion of the proceeds n hopes he mite not need to live there n eat up all his proceeds...
...I guess if one wanted a living investment, one could invest in a Christmas tree farm, depending on which part of the world lives in...

amen....I want the part with the bubblegum...

...interesting that many of the most prolific proponents of dismantling, relocating and deaccessing the ana r not members nor collectors, why would members or collectors listen to their opinions or recommendations without questioning their motives ... recommendations to move the ana to new york city, wash dc, chicago, los angeles other supposedly more sophisticated locations r simply inane, why would any collector, researcher or yn want to go to any of those locations in this day n age..."instigation of this heresy" was misinformed n wrong in the past n still is in the present...some members of this forum seem to have been living in prairie dog holes for the past few decades n r out of touch with the hobby n collectors, non-collectors usually r...there r many adjuncts to the hobby that provide individuals with influence, platforms n accolades, often inflated, that do not translate to well grounded opinions n recommendations for what is best for the hobby or the ana...there is always room for improvements n the ana is facing challenging times but it is currently well  situated geographically, financially n professionally...

...innovators and reshapers are not necessarily beneficial to the hobby...changing a hobby does not always make it better...many of the listed individuals were driven by financial aspirations rather than pure hobby improvements, original research into the roots of any hobby is usually a productive effort that adds clarification and historical documentation, research and innovation that is designed and motivated to simply influence others into following a desired path does not necessarily make the hobby better...not all innovators, reshapers, researchers are equal, some have actually damaged the hobby...perhaps the greatest influencers of a hobby were the originators and discoverers of the hobby while in its purest form and not all those that seek to change it...perhaps Coin World should have titled their survey to be a list of greatest positive influencers...

...I would beg to differ...food, booze, trinkets, candy, cigarettes, nylons etc may provide a basis for localized barter in  times of stress but hardly equate to stores of value...hard specie i.e. gold will always be more advantageous as a medium to obtain life essentials...during the pre thru post Vietnam war era Asian women migrating away from the areas of stress wore all the gold they could carry, im not aware of any instances of them carrying kegs of beer or bags of beans or the family cow with them in their departures...gold has been THE store of value for the past two millennia, medieval kings, feudal lords, emperors, knights templars et al derived their power n influence from their gold reserves, they did not pay their mercenaries in beef, mead or crumpets...countries with strong gold reserves still rule the roost...of course if one were on mars or the moon, its true that gold might not be preferable to oxygen or water...there is a dichotomy in these discussions; persons in areas of stress i.e. war zones that have no hope of escape obviously need to make it from day to day n need those necessities n can not drink nor eat gold, there must be required goods available for exchange, but for those with hope of escape gold will be their number one store of value to take with them...my father was also in the CBI theatre of operations during ww2 n the locals preferred the US dollar n British pound n in some instances mpc notes over all else...cigarettes n chocolates were just items of favor that were normally just given away...gold , land n maybe gunpowder continue to remain king....

...I would beg to differ...food, booze, trinkets, candy, cigarettes, nylons etc may provide a basis for localized barter in  times of stress but hardly equate to stores of value...hard specie i.e. gold will always be more advantageous as a medium to obtain life essentials...during the pre thru post Vietnam war era Asian women migrating away from the areas of stress wore all the gold they could carry, im not aware of any instances of them carrying kegs of beer or bags of beans or the family cow with them in their departures...gold has been THE store of value for the past two millennia, medieval kings, feudal lords, emperors, knights templars et al derived their power n influence from their gold reserves, they did not pay their mercenaries in beef, mead or crumpets...countries with strong gold reserves still rule the roost...of course if one were on mars or the moon, its true that gold might not be preferable to oxygen or water...there is a dichotomy in these discussions; persons in areas of stress i.e. war zones that have no hope of escape obviously need to make it from day to day n need those necessities n can not drink nor eat gold, there must be required goods available for exchange, but for those with hope of escape gold will be their number one store of value to take with them...my father was also in the CBI theatre of operations during ww2 n the locals preferred the US dollar n British pound n in some instances mpc notes over all else...cigarettes n chocolates were just items of favor that were normally just given away...gold , land n maybe gunpowder continue to remain king....

...I would beg to differ...food, booze, trinkets, candy, cigarettes, nylons etc may provide a basis for localized barter in  times of stress but hardly equate to stores of value...hard specie i.e. gold will always be more advantageous as a medium to obtain life essentials...during the pre thru post Vietnam war era Asian women migrating away from the areas of stress wore all the gold they could carry, im not aware of any instances of them carrying kegs of beer or bags of beans or the family cow with them in their departures...gold has been THE store of value for the past two millennia, medieval kings, feudal lords, emperors, knights templars et al derived their power n influence from their gold reserves, they did not pay their mercenaries in beef, mead or crumpets...countries with strong gold reserves still rule the roost...of course if one were on mars or the moon, its true that gold might not be preferable to oxygen or water...there is a dichotomy in these discussions; persons in areas of stress i.e. war zones that have no hope of escape obviously need to make it from day to day n need those necessities n can not drink nor eat gold, there must be required goods available for exchange, but for those with hope of escape gold will be their number one store of value to take with them...my father was also in the CBI theatre of operations during ww2 n the locals preferred the US dollar n British pound n in some instances mpc notes over all else...cigarettes n chocolates were just items of favor that were normally just given away...gold , land n maybe gunpowder continue to remain king....

...CAC "endorsement" can be beneficial in certain areas of US coin collecting....I wont go into that on this thread....but, most "old time" pure collectors rely on their own acquired grading knowledge to determine whether the coin they r considering buying meets their standards or needs, they don't require TPG or stickers or beans....after all, u know if the girl is pretty or not regardless of the dress she is wearing...

...CAC "endorsement" can be beneficial in certain areas of US coin collecting....I wont go into that on this thread....but, most "old time" pure collectors rely on their own acquired grading knowledge to determine whether the coin they r considering buying meets their standards or needs, they don't require TPG or stickers or beans....after all, u know if the girl is pretty or not regardless of the dress she is wearing...