zadok

many of the garrett, norweb, eliasberg et al coins in ms65 or above holders have fingerprints...i doubt u would ever get a consensus that they r au or low grade ms coins....as for "cabinet friction" on unc coins, its a well established n accepted norm in the numismatic community, has been for decades n will remain so...only a few misinformed n obstinate persons r in the minority that assert otherwise....once again opinions do not equate to facts...

Just because others disagree with you - in this case, with your close-minded conclusion based upon images - doesn’t mean they’re dishonest and motivated by money. You keep throwing that out there, perhaps because you don’t have a solid basis for your declarations.

I’m open to the possibility that the coin should have been graded lower. But I haven’t seen it in hand and neither have you. Even if we had, however, our opinions would be opinions, not facts.

...whistleblower??...in numismatic terms is that one step up or one step down from opinionated windbag?...

You’re making conclusions and stating opinions as facts, based on on-line images. You should know enough to realize that doing so can be irresponsible. And that’s so matter how certain you are.

The coin in question has wear on the leg and breast. It does not matter how this happened, and the old con line of "cabinet friction" is nothing but an attempt to misdirect buyer attention. Since proof coins are never bagged, contact with other coins in a bag cannot not be used as an excuse.
Thus the coin can never be higher that "58" or in this case PF-58, exactly as TPRC and others stated. The grade assigned by a third party of PF-63 is clearly - obviously- false. The result is that the present owner has been potentially cheated by paying for a grossly overgraded coin. This is not a matter of quibbling over a point or two - the assigned grade is false and this kind of basic error should never get out of a professional company.
Dealers and collectors must demand that TPG produce consistent, accurate results. However, the lure of easy money seems to activate the greed button in some, making the original submitter a handsome profit for an obviously overgraded coin. It's especially sad that the present owner seems to think his AU-58 proof should actually be graded higher....
Please folks, learn to grade your coins and act first in your own interest when buying. Do Not depend on the label.

Coins can still be uncirculated with cabinet friction. Just like coins can be uncirculated while having been in circulation. 
And while we're demanding things of the TPGs that will never happen:
TPG's I demand you stop listing provenance of meaningless collectors. No one knows who 99% of these people are. I'm tired of wasting money to remove the provenance from inserts.  TPG's I demand you stop using special picture inserts for seemingly every different coin. I get that the Schlock  At Home people want it, but it degrades your image and credibility badly. 

TPG's I demand you stop giving MS grades to older coins unless they truly are friction free. Whether MS or Proof you have hundreds and maybe thousands of overgraded coins with rub or 'cabinet friction'. This has been going on since the advent of third party grading. What say you CAC ?

oh please mr magistrate whatever u do, dont send me to australia.....sydney, melbourne, canberra all those horrible places...i wont steal anymore bread....

i believe Petty also played around on the racing circuit as well...

its ok we all know u r from new york.....

Mint employees are already in cahoots with major error coin dealers, feeding them material.

me thinks they got leeg confused with queequeg, ahab....

me thinks they got leeg confused with queequeg, ahab....

...can sympathize...spent few hundred/thousand hours rummaging thru docs at congressional library few decades back n ditto many hours up close n personal to the national coin collection...can attest the latter more fun than the former...but with proper authorization one can access the real not sanitized docs, can attest there r no jollies there...only prob i had was that all the real first hand people for area i was interested in were all dead, no jollies there either...hopefully u n better half can successfully make ur trip to wales in the next year or so before the next ice age....

just trying to close one more loop, u seemed interested in trying to determine how to differentiate tween paris n calf certs...providing u the best info available....no clue to what extent mark mite be privy to re pcgs certs...the paris submission site purely a business decision with both positives n negatives, but still comes down to the experiences n knowledge of individual graders regardless where located...yea the french hoard was on internet, interesting...as for capitalization, i only have one box of capital letters n use sparingly...id stay away from ephesus though if i were u....

....i passed on ur concern n anxiety bout discerning the source of certified roosters tween california n paris to my mentor, he allowed u a brief respite from his more compelling efforts n granted u insight....Carnac the Magnificent intoned to Zadok the Lesser to be relayed to QA the Inquisitive the following...."the tpg in paris has a small cadre of authenicators, graders n certifiers that perform onsite duties n if happen to receive items they r not qualified to make determinations then transfer such items to their counterparts in california...as for ascertaining the geographical source of the determinations on the after market, there r no distinguishing characteristics tween the end products from either source; however, if the Inquisitive one should choose to go to the verify certification site on the tpg webpage n view the coin in question he may notice that some coins r shown in the entire slab as opposed to just the coin, the cadre in paris normally choose to use this technique as opposed to the cadre in california who tend to use just the coin....however, this is not conclusive, as customers in the usa have the option of requesting either option"...his Magnificence deemed this to be adequate for his Inquisitiveness's needs....he further offered the following addendum, his nephew Artemis has placed a pox on the Herostratus Hoard for burning down his temple...beware....

Never detract from your detractions. It confuses people. Thumbprints are tolerated much more than even tiny nicks. The era of the “nick pickers” ended decades ago. Some dinosaurs who no longer collect have failed to keep up. But they sure can write books with material regurgitated from a NARA. 

But what about the standards....?
Easy. Circulation, use the ANA standards. Programming is little more than a series of If-Then statements: conditionals implementing the visual and written descriptions - basically the same as done now but with objective consistency.
Easy. Uncirculated, use the common range overlaps for the major TPGs. The programming is a set of counts/area vs area each side calculate the mean.
Easy. One standard deviation range; mean both sides will break ties.
Easy. Proof like, use major TPG definitions, then mean reflected beam dispersion from 6 points each side. Also works for legitimate brilliant proofs, etc. (Sandblast and matte proof would not work.)
A high schooler could write most of this with a little supervision and database help.

It would do exactly what meaningful "grading" should do: establish an equal empirical base for every graded coin. From that base of equality, opinions would then flourish and become part of a useful and meaningful discussion of value to individuals.
As a practical matter, the street value of many coins would not change. A lot might go up, and some would go down. But the entire structure would be open, honest and without corporate or anonymous bias. Grade inflation would cease - although owners would have a field day with exaggeration; but they do that anyway.
Bottom line: let facts tell the basic story (just as in research) and keep opinion separate.  OK....ok....I hear a great grinding flutter in the wallets of some - so what?
Be truthful or begone!

If you were to assign numerical grades that didn't take strike, luster and eye-appeal into consideration, in the case of uncirculated coins, in particular, those grades would be largely meaningless. For example, a coin with few marks, but dull luster, a poor strike and negative eye-appeal would receive a high grade. What good would that do?

Yep. We do not have a clear original model, or master coin for most early US coins. Even for more modern coins there are many without a design master available - 1921 Peace dollars, for example, have zero specimens that fully realize the US Mint design cast; what's a 1968 fully struck Lincoln cent look like? How about a 1965 quarter or a 1948 half dollar?
The bands/steps/heads are bologna because a single "full" feature does not mean the coin design was fully realized. Standing Liberty quarters are an outstanding example of misleading "full strike" terminology. A full head detail coin can have missing shield stars or rivets or stripes, or lost toes; a full steps Jefferson nickel can easily have missing head detail; none of the 1936-42 proofs have full design detail, etc., etc. The clutter of misleading terms leads to deception about the quality of a coin's true detail, and a false belief that a specific coin is somehow better than another.

heritage n stacks both very reasonable seller percentages depending on dollar value n demand for coins n in some instances there is no seller percentages...i have used both because of their customer bases n results were very satisfactory....

I agree, they cannot. And that is exactly why the grade of a coin - it's state of preservation - must not include personal opinion about luster, desirability, strike and other non-empirical criteria. The condition ("grade") is the fundamental characteristic of a coin or medal....properly standardized, it is the "facts" about a coin. This is just as much a part of the coin as its provenance.
The coin's condition ("grade") is, of course, merely one criteria buyer and seller can use to determined the marketability and collector interest in a coin. The condition ("grade") is also one of the aspects that can be quantified - we have, and have had for decades, the tools to do this; quickly, reliably, objectively.
The fundamental fault in current TPG-type "grading" is that it attempts to blend too many obscure and esoteric concepts into a single, unreliable number or adjective. If TPGs and collectors focused on the facts, the free market of buyers and sellers would take care of the rest.