Insider

Roger. There are several MAJOR ERRORS in your post. Unfortunately, I don't have time to post what they are at the moment. I will take them one at a time over the next few days as you, I and others here are going to have an excellent discussion worthy of anything posted on the Internet. I hope we can get some NGC graders to add their comments at night after work.

I'd like to agree with both of you but there cannot be any agreement anymore. At one time, the line between AU and MS was well defined. No trace of wear. SOME FOLLOWED THAT STANDARD and some did not. Each passing year, there are fewer folks who have heard of that standard or actually used it! That standard is virtually gone forever. There are ranges of both MS and AU. Unfortunately, the geniuses' who wrote the ANA Grading Guide forever screwed the system beginning with AU. While the AU grade range was once determined EXCLUSEVELY by the amount of additional wear on a coin, the ANA combined that with the number of marks - typical & choice. Grading is a personal thing. It is your money. The most knowledgeable collectors and best professional dealers know the commercial grade of coins and it may not agree with their personal standards. COIN GRADING IS SIMPLE. Discussions as this thread make it seem complicated. If collector A calls the OP's coin MS-60 he is correct. If collector B grades it MS-61 he is correct. The collector who called it 62 is ALSO correct and in this case he is probably MORE CORRECT because he agrees with the commercial grade assigned by a top TPGS! IMO, the OP's coin is an MS-60. If it came into a TPGS I worked for, I would grade it MS-61. The finalizer would possibly raise my grade to MS-62 in order to reflect the company standards. I would not buy the coin BUT I would sell it as an MS-62 all-day-long (with no thought to the collector with a lower standard than mine) and sleep like a baby. See, simple.

Meh, meh? Are you here to offer opinions, disagree, agree. and possibly learn something??? IMO, both coins posted here are Uncirculated. They are not thumbed. Now, if you care to interact with me and the rest of the members posting here, perhaps you can tell us WHAT YOU SEE ON THE COINS to arrive at your opinion. Take a shot as you may be able to change my opinion and teach me something.

Actually, I'd sell the coins ONE COMMERCIAL GRADE apart. One as a 61 and the other as a 63. The difference at Heritage is probably $40-$50.

That's nice to know. Fortunately, neither of these coins is thumbed nor AU.

Images can be very deceiving due to lighting. Turning and tipping a coin in different light sources can make bad characteristics disappear while accentuating good qualities. Eye appeal is everything. Grading is SUBJECTIVE: 1. I notice you did not post the reverse of the coins. The reverse is MUCH LESS important YET the OP's coin is the loser here. 2. The lighting on the OP's coin is very intense making marks show better. The luster on the other coin is more even and attractive - to me. 3. While the marks on both coins APPEAR to be similar, they are not. You cannot leave out LOCATION and SEVERITY. The OP's coin is the loser here also. 4. I want to know what the "etched" areas on the OP's coin look like under magnification. Finally, if I were a dealer, (based on my comments and the images), I should sell the OP's coin as a COMMERCIAL MS-62 (as graded) and sell the other at MS-63 raw.

This coin is much nicer than the OP's. This MS-62 is close to a 63. The OP's 62 is closer to a 60 for two of us posting.

As I wrote above, there is not much difference in price between a 60, 61, or 62 bullion coin. Probably and someone thought it was AU.

He didn't have an answer, he just spoke the TRUTH. Every so often threads as this occur and they go on and on. They are usually less entertaining than this one. It's 12:30 where I live in FL. Richie, you seem to be a night owl too.

IMO, there is a 95% chance that the "diagnostic marker" is either a heat bubble or a hit on the coin. Perhaps Richie will take a closeup of it when his head and bone injuries heal.

The NGC Forum needs some action. This entertaining thread provides it. On another Forum the members have a thread: "This forum needs some humor." They post some great jokes. It is much better than this but this is all we have.

Believe it or not there have been many instances over the years where top professionals familiar with the series have disagreed on a coin's authenticity. In a few cases, the odd man out turned out to be the only "expert" who was correct.

The answer to your question is simple. ANYTHING done to a coin can be said to be cleaning, doctoring, restoring, altering, blah, blah, blah. That includes running water over it or brushing it with a camel's hair brush. People get all hung up with the words - cleaning/conservation/doctoring. Intent is something we may never know but in truth it does not change this answer: IMO, ANYTHING that ANYONE does to a coin that CANNOT BE DETECTED is OK. That covers just about any word you wish to use. Thus, coin "doctors" have been getting coins graded for decades. Coin collectors and dealers have been getting "their work" graded for decades. Conservation services have been getting their work graded also. Unfortunately, due to subjectivity and the ability of the examiner, some of these coins would fail the "cannot be detected" or "market acceptable" test.

I know nothing at all about coins. But I like to comment anyway. There is something "iffy" about every coin to me. Just my opinion. I hope this was helpful.

Sorry to hear you hit your head and broke some bones in the accident. There are several places where you can send you coin for a free exam. All it takes is a phone call or letter + return postage. Collector's Clearinghouse did this at one time and I know there is at least one TPGS that would look at it for free because if it is unaltered it would be front page news for the TPGS that authenticated it. BTW, I'm dealing at the moment with a man who has a unique coin that he has been trying to get certified for years. No one will call it bad yet no one will authenticate it either. Guess I'm his last shot. The reason I'm mentioning this fact is like you, he plans to take it to his grave if it is not authenticated. His plan is safe with me but he better not mention this to any one else because grave robbers may want his unique million dollar coin.

My opinion does not matter because I have not seen the coins. I too use consultants - they teach us - BUT I HAVE LEARNED by personal experience several decades ago never to rely on their opinion (no matter who, how many, how world renown, how experienced, how etc.) w/o verifying their opinion with my own eyes! Too many TPGS have been stung "dearly" since then. And yes...Knowing what the coins are matters to me. SELF EDIT...don't ask me.

This thread is getting slightly better. Now we know that NGC and PCGS have disagreed and "someone" is going to have the final word. That's nice. BTW, it all depends on who that "someone" is. PM me and I'll give you the address of my blind grandmother for her opinion too. Unfortunately, we still don't know what the coins are - very sad but this thread is hypothetical right?

I'll give it a try. I see no friction wear on the coin. It is NOT AU. It is MS. On coins like this, there is no price spread between 60 & 62 so everything a TPGS does for a particular coin is a guess. Example: A finalizer once told me that $2 1/2 Indians start at MS-62! This coin is the "poster child" for the MS-60 grade but that grade is seldom used anymore so it is probably graded NGC MS-61. Without all the MAJOR hits - NGC MS-62. However, I hope the 4 tiny areas of discoloration (etched surface?) at the obverse rim knock it back where it belongs, my personal MS-60.

I just figured it out! At the left end of the gear rack is a 1 1/2 inch die. The other die is at the upper edge of the platform. IMHO, they need a better example in the museum OR put a copy of this drawing and explanation with their "machine."

I found this on another forum posted by an advanced Bust Half collector (Lance). It is easy to see how coins are rolled along the length of two dies. I cannot for the life of me understand how the contraption in the ANA Museum works! Here's a description of the castaing machine from an 1819 account. Lance. "The machine used for this purpose consists of two plates of steel in form of rulers, on which the edging is engraved, half on the one, and half on the other. One of these plates is immovable, being strongly bound with screws to a copper plate on a board or table; the other is movable, and slides on the copper plate by means of a handle, and a wheel, or pinion, of iron, the teeth of which catch in other teeth, on the surface of the sliding plate. The planchet, being placed horizontally between these two plates, is carried along by the motion of the movable one; so as by the time that it had made half a turn, it is found marked all round."

You have described the process very well. The coin edge is rolled on to the coin when it is contact with a moving die. I still don't see how this machine can do it. Where does the coin go? Thanks.

I've got a semi-unique coin. Only two were struck. It must be worth a fortune! I want to sell mine but the only person in the world who would want it already owns the other one.

Please explain to us how that thing puts letters on the edge of a coin. OP Edge errors as yours are very collectible. In my experience they are very uncommon.

I'm going to speculate that it is about 40 years old at least. It is not very deceptive at all and does not look like a modern manufactured piece and not Chinese.

Lunch time over...see you.