Insider

LOL, 1. There is a sign at our table that the FREE opinions given to anyone during all hours the show is open MAY NOT BE the same as the grade assigned in the grading room at the office. There are obvious reasons for this. 2. It probably was not me because I can usually hit the PCGS or NGC grade on a coin on the button and tell you why they chose that grade. 3. Ethics is not involved at all. Whomever you showed the coin to gave you an honest opinion. Obviously, since it was NOT in an ICG holder at the time, our grader never knew it was ever graded by ICG. 4. I'm very sorry you didn't send it in as you may have gotten the 64 grade as the coin sounds very nice to be in an NGC 63 slab. It would be easier to sell in the NGC holder but I suspect you could have squeezed a tiny bit more in a second tier 64 holder. 5. ICG does not try to sell up grades. I'm going to guess that we reject about 15% of the NGC or PCGS graded coins for cross and 98% sent for upgrade. The dirty little secret is that all four major services grade about the same. You just pay more and wait longer at the larger two top services. The trade off is the coins in their slabs are usually worth more money because more collectors prefer them. 6. You may wish to ask around why your friend Mr. Taylor lives outside the country. PS I like virtually everyone so I'm sure I would also like you but business is business and you need to please yourself.

No one is pushing for Semi-PL. That was a perfectly good designation (PL was the ONLY other at the time) long ago before it fell out of favor and all the mirror like ranges were expanded. There is more of a chance to see something stupid like Very Deep Ultra Blast White Cameo.

At every service I've worked at EVERYONE has been instructed to immediately report any damage (hairline, fingerprint, etc) THEY do to a coin so that it can be either fixed or noted in the records. It starts with the people opening the mail who look for "fresh" damage that was on the coin as received. I personally remove a smear or print from a customer's coin (that occurred after the coin was graded) several times a year. Send the coin back and ask for it to be fixed.

I guess we are still playing games. What country, what coins? We live in the USA. How many TPGS authenticators are experts in the coinage of certain countries? Example: I didn't grow up in Russia and collect Russian coins my entire life until I joined the staff at the Hermitage Museum as an authenticator. That makes me an expert in Russian Numismatics yet I would know a little about US coins too because counterfeits all over the world have certain characteristics. So I probably would think ALL the very deceptive US fakes that have passed as genuine by American authenticators were genuine too. Most of the TPGS folks are experts in US coins. THEY HAD TO LEARN anything about the coinage of other countries because it did not come naturally. Perhaps a consultant deserves some of the blame. Anyway, one thing is certain, the mystery coins are either genuine or they are not.

This thread is NOT about differences in the grade opinion assigned to a coin by any TPGS. Grading is subjective, authentication IS NOT.

I just started reading this thread. IMO, you have an altered coin. The key is this: When the mint sandblasts a coin to make a special finish the chance that the coin will have any contact marks is very slim to none. With altered surface coin, you will usually find contact marks with exactly the same surface as the rest of the coin. When a genuine matte coin has a contact mark, it is different from the untouched surface.

PS With FEW exceptions ANYONE else who sends an ANACS or ICG slab to NGC or PCGS for cross or upgrade is going to be disappointed most of the time. Why should a top two TPGS admit that a second tier TPGS that folks dismiss with jokes can grade on par with them and cross the coin making it more valuable in their slab? Send them in raw for a better shot.

Over the decades, I've worked at three of today's major TPGS (not PCGS) plus two others. Therefore, I'll write that your post is the most ignorant opinion I've read this year! This thread started as a disaster in the making and crashed with your comment. Obviously, you are unaware of the fact that some of the professional authenticators at ANACS and ICG have been detecting fakes long before some of the experts at the top two services were out of school! With the exception of Rick Montgomery, most of the top professionals at NGC and PCGS began as coin dealers. Enough said. Thankfully, over time, those ex-dealers at the top two services have gained the respect of their peers when they became extremely good at what they do. So today, there is very little difference between the pool of expertise at all four major services. Still, for some reason - I can think of a few possibilities - the experts at PCGS and NGC have EACH slabbed more fakes as genuine than both ANACS and ICG combined! That's what makes your post totally uninformed. As to this thread. Quit playing games. WHAT IS THE COIN! That makes a big difference. Some coins are better sent to one service while the other service is better at authenticating other types. As to detail grading vs straight grading the same coin - it happens ALL THE TIME. In my experience, ICG and ANACS tend to be less forgiving for cleaned or damaged coins. This is the NGC forum. Otherwise, I would tell you the very simple solution to your question. Since I cannot do that, I advise the OP to call NGC and ask to speak to Rick. Lay out the case in ONE MINUTE and ask him what you should do - he is a busy person. I think you'll be satisfied with the result.

There never were STANDARDS in the "wild west!" Then when the ANA published theirs, most professionals ignored them! As to inconsistent...In 1972 I devised the "True" Technical System of grading that we used for internal records at the first and oldest coin authentication service in DC. That system was "bastardized" when the service moved to Colorado because the only guy to move knew virtually nothing about grading or coin authentication. He was added to the staff as an unnecessary expense to the ANA to spy on our Director and report directly by phone to Old Cracked Eye who knew much less about authentication! The "true" Technical System was carried over to the FIRST TPGS at INSAB in DC when ANA left town. The system was very strict and precise because the ONLY thing we did was asses the condition of preservation of the coin from the way it left the dies. All the variables suck as eye appeal. strike, value, etc were removed. WE DID NOT PRICE COINS. All the system did was to let us be able to ID the coin WHENEVER it was seen again no matter how many years went past AS LONG AS IT REMAINED IN THE SAME CONDITION. We considered it to be "archival grading." Our grading was done using a stereo microscope and OUR MS COINS WERE MS! In some cases they may have been ugly as eye appeal did not count at all. We did not price coins. That is what the commercial coin market is for. So you see, our standards DID NOT CHANGE. Some of you heard this story before...v.short version. The FIRST coin grading service (INSAB) was threatened with a potential law suit by a major auction company because we graded a "gem" gold dollar that was bought and auctioned as a MS-65 (highest possible grade at the time because 70 was never used) AU-58 because of a loss of luster from cabinet friction on its relief. We refused to change our standards or stop grading coins FOR FREE. Thankfully, before we were sued, the the ANA started the SECOND TPGS and charged a fee for grading. We never heard any more about it and then we started to charge money for our grading OPINION.

Dear Quintus, I've lived through the excellent capsule history of U.S. Coin grading you have posted. IMO, most of the changes you wrote about have been good for the industry although they may have been taken too far in a few cases in an attempt to be more precise. The problem is THE STANDARDS were changed!