GoldFinger1969

I think it was mentioned here before....but the risk of milk spots or other blemishes turning your PF70 or even PF69 into something worth 75% less overnight is also a BIG risk if you can't afford it.

On 4/1/2024 at 2:24 PM, VKurtB said:

The Crimson Tide basketball team ACTUALLY DESERVE their Final Four berth. 

Bama should have probably beat Michigan.  They were probably the 2nd best team overall.

Might re-post this in one of the Hoard Threads, but given the prominence of the MCMVII HR I thought it could go here.

Doug Winter posted back in early-2021 about a stealth hoard of MCMVII HR's that had depressed prices.  I reached out to him for more details but never heard back.  Anyway, from his blog at the time:

"...In 2019, an average quality PCGS MS63 1907 Wire Edge High Relief $20 typically sold for around $20,000. In late 2019/early 2020 a substantial hoard of High Reliefs in MS63 through MS65 came onto the market and prices dropped to $14,000-15,000 by the middle of 2020. Prices rose slightly towards the end of the year but these are likely to remain flat in 2021."

I'll scout recent pricing the last 2-3 years to see if they have bounced back as I think they have.  If anybody has heard about this "MCMVII HR Hoard" -- and where it might come from (probably domestic) -- chime in. 

$2,280 overnight, up another $40. 

On 3/31/2024 at 3:44 PM, VKurtB said:

The counterpoint to that excellent reasoning is that the ASE remains BY FAR the most frequently encapsulated coin by NGC. And it’s not even close. Yeah, I don’t get it either, but it is what it is. SOMEBODY surely does love the 💩 out of collecting the things. 

It's affordable...the coin looks nice....it's 1 ounce of silver....makes a nice present.   

I don't know how PCGS computes FMV for coins, but if it some algorithim based on previous prices, then thir FMV would be too HIGH if the price is in a long-term downtrend as the 1995-W ASE was for a decade or so.

On 3/31/2024 at 2:23 PM, bobbyboshay said:

if it’s worth 6 figures or not money when it comes to rarity is not the issue  does this coin is the best  or in so many words the G O A T of  American Eagle who care of the price history  with so many of these coins certify is there a coin with these many certification still holds this much value when in most cases the prices don’t hold this value?  Don’t forget we are talking about silver eagle 🦅 also the termite still have there coins and hasn’t sold them on the market  because it’s still few on the market and the termite ain’t selling them for 24 dollars 

I think you answered your own question.  Quite frankly, if I was an ASE collector or if I just wanted a 1995-W as a conversation piece, I would almost certainly go for a 68 or 69.  

ESPECIALLY when you consider the risk of milk spots or something developing down the line.  One thing to have a $2,500 coin get cut in half price-wise....but to spend $12,000 and have it go down by 75-80% would be too much unless I had just won PowerBall. 

On 3/31/2024 at 3:28 PM, Jason Abshier said:

Yes it worth upper $10,000 to $18,000 (unconfirmed) or so going by heritage auction house prices in a PF70 grade ! So you got your answer 

PF69 is a lot less more like $1,600-$3,000 

A few weeks or months ago one got NO BIDs asking I think $13,000 or so on GC or HA.  So figure total cost of about $15K was too steep.  For a total cost of about $12,000 (give or take 10%), you can get the 70DCAM.  69-69's will run you $2K-$3K all-in.

On 3/31/2024 at 11:13 AM, Henri Charriere said:

Aside from Proofs, which are presided over by their own coterie of Principal Keepers, this is a very simple concept.

One of the MCMVII UHR's is graded PF58. 

Bobby, are you considering a purchase of some grade of 1995-W ASE ?  

On 3/31/2024 at 11:31 AM, bobbyboshay said:

Price drop from 86000 to 10000 if I’m not mistaken that’s what supposed to happen when others coins have been certified with the same grade I consider that a FMV correction 

It was also a bubble.  Most of the sales took place at about $30,000 or so, which even that was still bubble-like.  And we are talking very few sales even at $30K.

Once the supply hit (see my post above), the price really took a tumble.  Folks who thought maybe only a few dozen or even a few hundred coins would get the top grade and DCAM add-on suddenly recognized that (especially when you add in NGC) you could be talking THOUSANDS.

They'd still sell at a premium because of all the set registry collector demand....but not at multiple 5-figure pricing.

On 3/31/2024 at 3:44 AM, powermad5000 said:

NGC, PCGS, ANACS and now CACG provide the confidence that the coins are legit, but as for individual sellers, it is sort of impossible, especially for sellers who might only sell a couple or few coins a year. On eBay, there is feedback, but that can only go so far. The feedback is useful for sellers who consistently provide less than desired quality (such as receiving a coin not shown in the photos you bought from), or from sellers who don't even ship the coin, but for sellers like the one in question, I can only imagine not all the buyers from that seller actually submit their coins so for those who buy the coins off of those juiced up photos, they may only end up keeping them raw and not have the knowledge to check them for defects. Therefore, that seller can get positive feedback but there is actually a disconnect between the feedback and reality of the purchase.

Mike was looking at a certified coin, right ?  The only dispute was whether or not the lighting was making it look much nicer ?

On 3/31/2024 at 3:45 AM, powermad5000 said:

If it is not too late, Mike, you can look into the rules for retracting your bid. In some cases, you can retract your bid if it is made in error.

What's their return policy ?

On 3/30/2024 at 10:08 PM, Coinbuf said:

There have always been and are today sellers that attempt to deceive buyers that may not be informed; be it coins or vacum cleaners.   TPG's have helped to level the playing field at first.  But for whatever the reason TPG grading has changed from when they started.  CACG  is simply resetting back to the earlier standards.   So I see is as CACG is a return to the consistency that TPG'S had at inception.   Now will the marketplace like that is the question. 

Would you agree that the "market grading" slide for the most part has NOT been a change within MS or AU of 2-4 grade increments....but the JUMP from the AU to the MS bucket ? 

It's not the downgrade of 1 or even 2 increments that is leading to this polarized debate...it's the entire issue of MS vs. AU and the definition or tolerance for the slightest wear/friction/rub on the highest points of the coin.

Nobody is getting animated about a coin being EF-40 or EF-45...it's the downgrade from MS to AU by CACG that is causing the friction (no pun intended  ).

On 3/31/2024 at 1:45 AM, powermad5000 said:

There is not a "code" and there never has been. There have always been unethical sellers and even dealers in the numismatic world.

Well, this is something where the professional organizations should get off their butts and create something to give buyers confidence that someone is legit.  I guess if there is a very easy/liberal return policy that isn't bad but a seal of approval from an overseer would eliminate unhappy purchases.  Word spreads, especially in on the Internet, Social Media, forum message boards, etc.  If a dealer didn't have the necessary certification it would speak volumes.

Kind of surprised there isn't.  I see it in other fields -- I have money management certifications (CFA, CFP) for instance -- jewelers have their Gemological stuff, etc.

Isn't there some numismatic "Better Business Bureau" seal of Good Housekeeping or something.....PNG or ANA or something....that tells people the person abides by a code of ethics ?

I mean...doctoring coins and NOT saying they are....if I tried that with investing/money management, I'd lose my certifications and probably be fined/prosecuted. 

On 3/30/2024 at 11:49 PM, Just Bob said:

That’s the guy. The fields on his Morgan’s always look almost black, with that orange streak through them.

So this is one of those "Coin Doctors" that Laura S. was always complaining about, I take it ? 

On 3/30/2024 at 3:51 PM, RWB said:

Roberts had more opportunities to preserve historical specimens than did Leach.

Some of these guys may really love coins and the artistry associated with them....for others, it may have simply been a job to get a paycheck.

Also, political appointees. 

Mike, you have to shorten your OP subject titles....or I'm gonna wait for the movie version to hit !! 

On 3/30/2024 at 4:46 PM, bobbyboshay said:

That true  all coins are market hype  one factor that can’t be ignored is the low mintage  is what makes them rare  if that’s wasn’t the case they all would be worth the same in the case of the 1995 W that will never happen  no matter what the grade they are worth more then any modern silver eagle from 60 -70  is there any other eagle that holds that type of value ? 

No, except maybe that 2019-S Reverse Proof.  Not sure what has happened to pricing post-Covid for that one but I recall 70 DCAMs were maybe $1,500 or so ?

The thing with the 1995-W:  lots of people collect the ASE coins.  Once you start collecting every year's issue, then you had a built-in excuse to stretch to buy a coin that costs a few thousand dollars in 69 and maybe $10K for those with more $$$ to keep the streak going.  It's not like collecting Saints where most coins are under $5,000 and then to get any 1932 or other rare one you are talking 6 or 7-figures for any condition of the coin and that is something that 99% of people simply can't afford to do. 

That's one reason why there are so many more ASE collectors than other coin collectors and/or gold coin collectors.

On 3/30/2024 at 11:20 AM, RWB said:

Frank Leach had replaced George Roberts as director. 

How would you compare each as far as being "friendly" to numismatists and coin collectors ?

I realize that's a subjective question, just asking if you see any particular daylight between them that might carryover to the pattern issue.

I do wonder why the Mint Director's letter focused on destroying them.  Maybe he meant assuming it wasn't wanted/sold to someone at the Mint ?

As we know, if you paid for a pattern it was (apparently) OK.  So if the Mint Director wanted these patterns destroyed without exception (for whatever reason), I would think he would have said in the letter:  destroy them...not to be sold or stored....melted upon receipt. 

I would think the chances of these being used as counterfeits may have played a part.

On 3/29/2024 at 12:17 PM, RWB said:

Bigelow donated his pattern piece to the Museum, which held it in its collection until most of the collection was sold 70 years later.

If collectors will simply read modern research books they can find the answers themselves.

So if the Boston Museum sold this piece in the last 35 years, no way someone getting that piece didn't know about the value and history.  It's not like it disappeared 90 years ago when it was only marginally worth more than the nominal FV.  You buy anything from a museum, you're gonna check out the prices.