GoldFinger1969

On 12/25/2023 at 1:41 PM, Blind Pig said:

J P M hank you for your reply, I appreciate it and totally agree that it used to be the thing to clean coins.  However, it would truly be great if NGC could actually give the customer a copy of any notes taken during the grading process.  The coin I mentioned still “cartwheels” when rocked in the light and has some toning around it.  From what I have read in many places, including the NGC website, these are features that should not exist if a coin has been cleaned.  As an engineer I learned long ago that, without data to back it, it is just an opinion - therefore I would like to see the data that NGC has. 

They spend less than 30 seconds looking at virtually all coins, except maybe high-end ones or trophy coins.

Doubt there would be much to communicate.

On 12/24/2023 at 9:25 PM, Henri Charriere said:

FWIW:  Oklahoma and Missouri have both filed bills for the 2024 legislative session that would eliminate state sales tax gains on the sale of gold and silver. Both are already among the 42 that do not levy sales taxes on gold and silver bullion.

Not sure what is being changed....they don't levy sales taxes now on gold/silver but this new bill would eliminate SALES tax or CAPITAL GAINS tax on the SALE of gold/silver ? 

I made a mistake, sorry.....Coin #3 apparently is NOT a 1908 Wells Fargo NM.  It is one of the 1908's that pre-dates the Wells Fargo Hoard.

Aside from the fact that the WF Hoard generally are generally more appealing and better struck than non-WF even for the same grade...people probably also pay a premium for the WF moniker...ergo, that may explain why this coin didn't sell at this price and the non-WF pedigree was a slight headwind.

On 12/22/2023 at 12:57 PM, powermad5000 said:

Most certainly. I will message sellers, and it is immediately clear which path the seller is on. Getting no response or getting a defiant response = scammer. Getting a response like one I got this week that he uses 100X as a way to grade his coins = not the sharpest tool in the shed. Or the third type of response is someone who states they know nothing about coins and are appreciative of the information = someone who just doesn't know. Actually, there is a fourth. One guy I messaged stated in not so nice terms that the TPG's have ruined coins for everyone = misguided/has a bone to pick. I have a feeling he sent some coins to be graded and they didn't come back the way he thought they should. But the problem is there are just SO MANY listings that one could sit and just type messages all day. It is overwhelming.

There are so many morrons out there they may have been told stuff like..... "The TPGs deliberately give them low grades or say they've been altered...then they buy them on the cheap....I know people who sold a coin for $15 and the TPGs or a dealer sold it for $25,000...don't let them rip you off...the folks messaging you are looking to get the coins on the cheap...that Morgan Dollar you have that Grandpa sandpapered clean, don't let them lie and tell you it's not worth hundreds of dollars."     

I see the same thing in my field, money management, all the time but with folks wanting to act on "hot tips" or seduced by 12% "safe yields" and stuff like that. 

Or gold investments where you buy bullion, lend it out, do some other stuff, and make 20% a year while maintaining coin ownership. 

There's more information today than ever before....but the decision-making is stupider than ever.  I think that is what Bill Ackman vs. Harvard is all about.  

On 12/22/2023 at 12:57 PM, powermad5000 said:

Most certainly. I will message sellers, and it is immediately clear which path the seller is on. Getting no response or getting a defiant response = scammer. Getting a response like one I got this week that he uses 100X as a way to grade his coins = not the sharpest tool in the shed. Or the third type of response is someone who states they know nothing about coins and are appreciative of the information = someone who just doesn't know. Actually, there is a fourth. One guy I messaged stated in not so nice terms that the TPG's have ruined coins for everyone = misguided/has a bone to pick. I have a feeling he sent some coins to be graded and they didn't come back the way he thought they should.  But the problem is there are just SO MANY listings that one could sit and just type messages all day. It is overwhelming... I just spaced out a little bit and in the absence of direct thought concerning my day today, this just popped in my head. Could not AI be used to screen listings for coins? Could eBay not come up with a method since you have to upload pics and make a listing anyway, that AI could "review" the listing for accuracy and also reasonable pricing for the presented coin? Then AI could either approve or reject the listing. Rejected listings would have the chance to be corrected but if the seller still wants to charge $2,000 for a damaged coin then it would be blocked.

Many probably have coins from years or decades ago...they Google a few things about the coin and think it's worth 3-10x the FMV.

Something like that.

On 12/22/2023 at 3:16 PM, RWB said:

These and others indicate that the surface quality of ordinary DE coming from a US Mint was consistent with what "graders" now call "MS 66-67" or something similar. These were coin that never we in circulation and were not banged around in bags of kegs very much. That is also consistent with the self-styled "Wells Fargo" DE --- minted, bagged, keged or boxed, put on ship, sunk, found in undisturbed stacks.

I have to check, but I do NOT believe any of the 1908 NM WF Saints graded 68 or 69 has a CAC sticker.  Not sure about the 67's.

Does the CAC website have a listing of all the grades for particular coins that got the CAC bean ?

LiLPit....you didn't tell us how long you have been collecting Morgans or coins in general....have you bought raw or certified in the past....are you looking to focus in on 1 or 2 coin series ?

Lots of resources for whatever your intentions are here at the NGC Forums. 

On 12/22/2023 at 8:59 AM, Fenntucky Mike said:

Makes sense. The first coin has a distracting copper spot on the obv. and that ridiculous label, the second coin seems to have less visible detail on the obv and is in an NGC holder, three and four you're splitting hairs but I do like the look of four better than three. Since #2 seems a little weaker let's say that suppressed the price a few hundred, is 1k a typical spread between PCGS and NGC? Maybe the bidder on the PCGS coin needed a Christmas present for someone ASAP. 

I think $1,000 for 2 idential coins of this type is too steep. 

Unless you know one coin is a "B" or "A" type (and maybe a CAC, but don't assume it) and the other is your classic "C" overgrade where there's a good chance it should be a 66 and not a 67......$1,000 is too high, IMO, for a coin like this which is very common (maybe more justifiable in the same price range if the coin is scarcer).   

I think $500 is the sweet spot for coins in the $5,000 range...or about 10%.

On 12/22/2023 at 8:38 AM, J P M said:

Those are some big prices. not crazy, but it can also depend on the bidding for the night. If there are 3 bidders fighting over a coin the price can change and go to high. I am on the auction every week and see it all the time. I always try for NGC holders but there are not as many being sold most of the time.

$1,200 - $1,500 difference for a super-common coin like the 1908 NM is alot.  That's too much for a holder discount.  

Still, interesting that you can get an MS-67 Saint-Gaudens coin for under $6,000 (including bp) though you have to look for a really nice one.  RWB is right...lots of the 1908's don't look that great.  In fact, I've seen MS-66 CACs OGH that look much sharper than all of these 67's.

On 12/21/2023 at 10:51 PM, powermad5000 said:

That may be the policy for buy-it-now listings but I do see some of the larger sellers have coins go well above that all the time when they sell them at auction on eBay.

What may be the policy ?

The Coins & Prices: OK, , here are the coins.  If you find other MS-67's 1908 NM's feel free to post the pics and price so we can add to this comparision over time.  The more data points the better.   

The Motl NGC coin was sold for $4,755 (without the bp which would take on another 10-12%).

The older white holder NGC coin was sold for $5,000 even.

The 1st PCGS coin was NOT SOLD and had an asking price of $6,250.

Finally, the 2nd PCGS coin (the last pics) went for $6,550.

So it looks like the NGC coins definitely sold for a discount based on the holders, unless you can see definite differences that the grades themself don't show.  Even accounting for substantive differences, there appears to be a holder discount.   As for why the 1st PCGS coin couldn't get a bid and a $300 discount to the 2nd PCGS coin, well, I'm not seeing much difference between them but will now be looking closer at the Hi-Def pics.  Only realy blemish is the black copper spot (?) in teh Motl Coin near the olive branch in the left hand.

On 12/21/2023 at 5:32 PM, RWB said:

The difference is in using treasure and hoards to provide a baseline for "straight from the mint" conditions. If one looks at the stacked coins from the Central America wreck, their configuration is consistent with new coins stacked much as they left the Mint. The surface conditions of these pieces for abrasions, nicks, scrapes, etc. (and ignoring stains), are consistent with MS66-67. The Saddle Ridge hoard is another example where a large proportion of DE were in 66-67 condition, not by deliberate collection but by random hoarding of coins acquired from banks or a mint or an Assay Office in payment of deposits.

Ok....so.....the coins actually from those 2 hoards I take it had lots of 66's and 67's ?

I'm a bit confused on the importance of this baseline thing (were you responding to someone ?).  Basically, you have those 2 hoards and they're condition was such that there were lots of 66's and 67's because the coins were initially pristine and then even though exposed to the elements some coins randomly preserved/protected others and there was minimal moving over the decades -- is that what you are saying/implying ?

I will post the coin prices with coins matched tonight. 

So get yer Last Licks in by 9 PM or so !! 

On 12/20/2023 at 8:36 PM, RWB said:

As shown by hoards and treasure finds, this was the common condition of new DE straight from a bag. "Condition rarity" is, in my opinion, nothing but a zero-sum greed game used to stretch the Unc coin population and milk the suckers or "boobs" as John Ford liked to call them. Where are the "Conditional Common" coins....I hear no seller hype of these/ I see no TV blab, blab, blab, blab "YES Folks! Here were have the choicest Condition Commonality coin ever to come into our TV studio..."

Ironically, that sounds like some of the weekend coinfomercials I see, like the ones with Rick Tomaska, who is an accomplished author of some Whitman Red books but has some questionable marketing plugs IMO in his show.

On 12/20/2023 at 2:56 PM, powermad5000 said:

Honestly, NGC. I think a lot of PCGS slab grades are "overgraded" so it would make sense then if their price guides are inflated.

I think the PCGS premium largely reflects the fact that with Trophy Coins, the super-rich buyers prefer and will pay up -- price inelasticity ? -- for PCGS coins.  And that filters down a bit to lower grades.  Should it ?  I have no idea.

Why does NGC trade at a premium to PCGS in foreign/world/ancient (?) coins ?  Again, I have no idea why.

Maybe EliteCoin, who owns multiple Trophy Coins among Saints, can tell us how he would have felt had any of the coins been in one holder or the other.  Or how he and other fellow high-end buyers see the 3 Big TPGs now.  As I recall from his registry, I believe virtually every coin now is in a PCGS holder but maybe I'm wrong.

FWIW, I've never heard a good explanation as to why the PCGS premium came about in the first place sometime in the mid-to-late 1990's.  A market share thing....nicer holders....some gradeflation from the other TPGs....no idea.

On 12/20/2023 at 2:48 PM, powermad5000 said:

I just discovered this. I was looking to do some SBA upgrades for the set and was browsing 1980 S. I have come to find on the NGC price guide for an MS 67 is $300. I have also come to find out on the PCGS price guide an MS 67 is listed as $750. Perhaps someone can tell me why PCGS is more than double for NGC. The real problem with this particular is it causes a division in the sellers. Now, granted I had to throw out those figures for sellers I messaged with literally trying to push their junk coins for $400 or more. But the problem I noticed is it caused wild price differences.  In a case such as this, how then would one determine what FMV actually is?

Damn good question. 

I'm not really familiar with SBAs....but I will assume that at MS-67 the supply gets REALLY tight and you have heightened condition scarcity - is this the case ?  Major inflection point.....that sort of thing.  So....while there might be lots of 66's and 65's....there's no need to "pay up" for the PCGS premium at those levels.  But not so at MS-67.

The only thing you can do is see where recent sales went for all the relevant grades.  The more price data, the better and more accurate.

If NGC sellers think they can get PCGS pricing, let them believe that.  Those who are savvy and understand the market will price accordingly.  The rest will still be listing their coins 2 years from now. 

On 12/20/2023 at 10:36 AM, Mike Meenderink said:

Negative Nancy has arrived. When should we expect pessimistic Penny and Debbie Downer to arrive?

Hey, I welcome ALL debate.  If Roger has an opinion, I want to hear it even if I disagree with it.  In this case, I think he forgot the grades the coins got which even if generous, still makes them all Gem Quality.

On 12/20/2023 at 10:34 AM, RWB said:

These are all common Type I 1908 DE in "straight from bag" condition. I value them all at $2,500 each. The "cost" does not matter - there is nothing special about any of them. 

They are all MS-67's, Roger.....so they do have condition rarity.  We might disagree on the grades, but they are all Gem or Super Gem quality.  No low-60's or AU coins here, I think we can agree on that.

Tell you what....let me give everyone the prices for all 4 coins WITHOUT the buying premiums.  

The coins costs, in random order:   $5,000....$6,550.....$4,755.....and an ask price (no sale) of $6,250.

Now....you know the prices....can anybody match those 4 sales (3 sales, 1 no-bid) with the coin pics above ?

On 12/20/2023 at 9:29 AM, Mike Meenderink said:

I'll try; Coin 1/ $6300 Coin 2/ $6500 Coin 3/ $6400 Coin 4/$6700 

Interesting....I'll probably post the prices later today. 

On 12/18/2023 at 9:23 PM, Henri Charriere said:

Since cheating is a no-no   and I know nothing more than each has a sizeable premium, I will go with the last slab.

You mean it's the highest priced one ?

On 12/18/2023 at 2:32 PM, RWB said:

My article titled "Circulation of Foreign Gold and Silver Coins in the United States, 1826" is on pages 155-172 of the current issue of American Journal of Numismatics. This issue was just released. Copies are available from the American Numismatic Society in New York. Hope members will find it interesting.

What made you focus on 1 particular year and that year in particular....as opposed to a wider time period, like say 1900-1914 or 1919-1933 or something like that ?

Isn't focusing on 1 year sort of difficult ?

On 12/18/2023 at 2:03 PM, EhPlusCoins said:

I recently purchased an NGC-graded 2019 $5 Silver Maple Leaf with a phonograph privy graded as PF-70/RP-70 from a very highly rated seller on eBay.hen the coin arrived today I was surprised to see I received a different coin than was pictured in the listing. My coin has some kind of damage on the reverse.

Always ask if the coin shown is what you are getting.  Also make sure there's a decent return policy. 

Silver coins CAN change over time.  If a silver coin is dated and flawless, less chance of it changing than a coin from the current or last year.  A 10-year old coins less likely to exhibit changes than a 1-year old.

I like to have a 70 grade for some modern coins, especially silver commemoratives.  They look nice, especially the reverse proofs.  However, once you get 1 in a series you might find it cost-effective to look at 69's since they look indistinguishable from the 70's but will cost considerably less.

On 12/18/2023 at 10:42 PM, Sandon said:

Purchased uncertified as Extremely Fine at a March 2002 coin show, this semi-key date 1879-CC has a slightly glossy darkish color and light hairlining in the fields that NGC not unexpectedly interpreted as evidence of "cleaning" when I submitted it for certification last month. It also has some rim damage. However, now graded XF Details, Cleaned, it remains in my opinion a decent circulated example of this now rather expensive issue.

How exactly can they tell if a coin was "cleaned" ?  Do even modern cleaning cloths -- including super-fine microfibers and stuff like that -- necessarily show proof of cleaning compared to stuff 50 or 100 years ago ?

Also, what about if a coin just slid in a velvet pouch, could that come off as cleaning ?

I don't doubt that many coins were cleaned years or decades ago, but it's also possible they have light circulation wear or other contact with pouches (this was before TPGs for many coins) or whatever that held them.

Just curious...what are the grading fees on a trophy coin worth $1 MM ?  What about one worth $100,000 ? 

Even if you spend 2-3 minutes on the coin instead of 30 seconds, it's a huge windfall for the lucky TPG.