GoldFinger1969

Are you saying that a Saint-Gaudens (or other larger coin, for our purposes) that APPEARS to have "wear" but in fact was only dinged around in a bag.....you're not saying it should be graded AU just because it may LOOK like most AU's, are you ? A heavily-scuffed, dinged coin that does NOT show wear on the high points should still be graded Mint State, IMO. My understanding of grading is this is acceptable.

Good points....but today's super-hi resolution 4K scanners, lasers, and CPUs can do wonders. I don't know how they can or do work, but I know that these self-driving cars have to process dozens of scenarios in a 1/50th of a second that humans can only process 2-4 scenarios in maybe 1/2 second. Or something like that. Maybe you can use the high-tech scanners to scan modern coins and save the human experts for classics.

With high-tech scanning and the ability to use micro-lasers to recreate the surface with any/all imperfections....you would think this would be a supplment or aid or sole judge going forward. The whole concerpt of self-driving cars -- or the cars taking over at critical times -- is that a CPU can process information faster and from more sources than a pair of human eyes and the human brain. Similarly, high-tech scanners, cameras, and/or lasers should be able to give us faster and better and more secure photos and grading than we had years or decades ago. At least I would think so......

No argument, Mark. Isn't it just natural to be more careful and spend more time when you get a high-grade coin than another in the bulk grades? Maybe you are naturally more careful or maybe you just haven't seen a coin like that too often...but the end result might be you spend a few more seconds on it and discern more closely. It just seems common-sense to me that if I were a grader and was looking at a bunch of 1924 Saints that pretty much graded MS63-MS65... and then all of a sudden I see a pristine one that looks like it's MS67 at worst, and maybe MS68....I'm gonna look at it closer. But maybe that's just me.

Fair points, Mark. I was also including the bulk modern grades there. My numbers are probably too high if we go by pre-1980 or pre-1964 classic coins, agreed.

You can insure it's used for specific benefits. Our local astronomy club is starting up a foundation which will benefit the public greatly. Don't knock administrative overhead and payroll. They ARE important. I'm not talking about a super-fat salary, paid up country club memberships, and free cars and other gluttonous perks. But I can tell you that for many of us in our Club it is a 2nd job that we volunteer for -- PT for most, FT for 1 or 2 -- to do the work in the club. Quite frankly, we probably NEED 1 paid FT person and maybe 2-3 other PT people to efficiently run the club. Just to effectively do social media (Facebook, Twitter, Instagram, etc.) you need someone dedicated at the job who can manuever around those sites and do it CONSISTENTLY every few days. You can't go weeks or months (or years !) between posts as we have in the past. At best, having paid staff makes an organization more efficient. At the extreme, it can make the difference between a small, non-profit club surviving for the next generation. And this virus has certainly shown that many businesses and non-profits can't survive a steep economic contraction in activity. You have to have a rainy day fund to tide you over. You can cut FT and PT staff during those times, but you need the foundation to be paying them in the first place.

No, I'm not a member at this time. Probably will join later on. A bit TO'd at the ANA for not being more forceful for the Langbord's in the 1933 Saints dispute. They valued their $$$ relationship with the U.S. Mint more, IMO. Yes, I would sell one of the 1913 Liberty Nickels. In fact, I would sell both of them -- and maybe have a stipulation that any future sales MUST take place through the ANA's annual convention. This way, you have a definite attraction and a show-stopper. Not sure how you would write such a policy into the sales agreement, but I think it could be done.

Great....I'm interviewing henchmen right now.....a Korean fellow....seems a bit "odd." I love how a plan comes together !!

OK, great job....so it seems they are short $800,000, at least in 2018. If the collection could be sold, that would really be helpful -- for all we know, the coins or other property is not reflected at true market value. Regardless, $37 MM would provide about $1.6 MM in annual endowment income which would certainly help. As coins, this part of their assets can't generate any annual income as best I can tell. If the Other Investments is the financial assets -- stocks, bonds, other investments -- that should be providing about $1 MM right now. It's possible that non-financial assets (coins) can NOT be sold if they were bequeathed, I don't know. You would also think that the ANA should be in a position to get a nice donation either while living or upon death from a member or wealthy coin collector who would like to bequeath a legacy. But you have to ASK as the ANA and/or coins are not at the top of most people's donation list, even wealthy people with plenty of $$$. Maybe someone at the ANA should spend a few hours working on this.

As an example, Roger, I don't think it matters to much if a common Saint is graded MS62 or MS63 -- it's going to track bullion at either grade Heck, it can go down to MS60 or even AU58 and not suffer a price hit. OTOH, there's a HUGE jump in value from MS66 to MS67 for commons like the 1923-D. The coin jumps from about $3,500 to $12,000. So you just don't see a sloppy misgrade of a coin like the 1923-D at inflection points. Maybe it's just because they naturally tighten up or are more careful or spend more time grading as you approach the mythical 70 grade level or other inflection points. It's at those levels that you are more likely to see a "+" or "*" than at MS62 or MS61.

Roger, and wouldn't you say FOR THE MOST PART...those condition have been met ? Pre-TPGs, who knows how accurate or fair most dealers or coin shows treated buyers. Maybe they were accurate 50% of the time....75%....90%. I have no idea. But I know lots of times coins were not off by numbers but by entire conditions (MS vs. AU vs. EX vs. VF, etc.). But I'd say today the TPGs get it right...what.....95% of the time ? 99% ? 99.9% ? Depends IMO on if you want to give them a 1 or 2 grade increment leeway to gauge the accuracy.

Anybody know what the annual budget for the ANA is and what the endowment provides ? That would clear up some things.

But no 2 coins are exactly alike to the naked eye -- unless they are maybe MS70 or MS69, and in the case of non-modern coins those coins can be counted on 1 or 2 hands (usually ). So go back to my post above. The grading HAS to be subjective because the DATA is not exact. You can agree that 2 Saints-Gaudens DE's are both MS67 but one has more dings on the obverse and the other has them on the reverse. Dings on the devices vs. dings in the fields vs. dings on the rim.....same, worse, better ? No 2 coins get dinged up or scuffed the same way. Major similarities aside, you have to weight the differences. And that is definitely subjective.

Hmmmm.....I wonder if she is available to help me liberate those 1933 Saints held at Fort Knox ?

Regrettably, I think you are right, Kurt. It's possible that thousands or tens of thousands of Liberty's and/or Saints were kept as a store of value but subsequent inheritors of the coins may have parted with them. I don't expect that many people back then were modern-day Silas Marners but you just figured that with banks not having transparency (except maybe major banks in urban areas) that more people would trust gold coins including Double Eagles. But I guess not. And I thought that paper money ("greenbacks") needed decades to recover from the experience of the 1860's.

But even "technical grading" without regard to market conditions can be subjective. Many here don't mind and even pay up for toned coins. Personally, for the most part, I hate toned coins. I'd probably grade a coin 1 or 2 grades lower for toning. Am I wrong ? How about grading 1 or 2 small gouges on a Saint-Gaudens field.....vs......lots of little dings ? How many "dings" equals a gouge ? How about clean fields but dents and dings on the rim ? Would 2 coins each with 5 or 6 dings grade the same if one had them in the fields and the other the rims ? What about on the devices ? Back to Saints....do you equally weight the reverse and obverse ? Does a ding/gouge in the obverse field penalize more than a ding/gouge on the reverse with the Eagle ? And if it's in the fields is it worse than in stray areas like the word LIBERTY ? What about the details in Liberty's face ? I don't think technical grading answers these questions (maybe I'm wrong). But all these are subjective and I think each grader weights them differently, starting with the Obverse vs. Reverse preference.

I think we can all agree that the current grading system has its flaws and the TPG's aren't perfect....that said.....we are definitely better off than we were before the TPGs came into being in the 1980's. Who knows what might have been created or what frauds perpetraded since the Internet came into being the last 20 years without the TPGs ? You see all the fraud with them....without them ? Ugghhh..........................

If I ever get reincarnated and can go back in time....I want to live in the late-1800's and early-1900's. I'll clean up !!

If you are staying multiple days, can always stay in the outer boroughs or suburbs and save $$$.

Interesting....have you seen the % of slabbed stuff increase over time ? We know Europeans aren't into TPGs as much as we are.

Here's one reason why I'm surprised the holding rates for gold coin ownership from 1870-1930 aren't higher: If you assume that today we have a few million serious coin collectors and folks who like to hold (some) gold....out of a nation of 330 million....that's about 1% of the population, conservatively. Could be a higher number but let's work with 1% which I think you will all agree isn't an aggressive estimate. If you assume average populations of 55 million in the late 1800's and 100 million in and around WW I....that would imply at least several hundred thousand people collecting or holding gold during those times. Fewer, for sure, given reduced standards of living and other variables of the day. But you could certainly make a case that gold coin collecting (in various denominations) should not have been all blue-bloods in NYC, Boston, and Philly.

1924's in MS65 at 2,750 ? That's a 44% premium to spot gold, I think it's way too high and I see plenty of MS65's asking LESS than that on Ebay which tends to be high on price. I see active Ebay bidding at about $2,300 for an MS65. That's about a 20% premium which is where they have been on average the last 8-10 years or so. So....the overall and relative (to the 1010-D) price is definitely lower for the MS65 1924. As it should be, given the populations you cited.

Seems like you are saying that the NYINC dealers are like mini-Stacks, Heritages, and other high-end sellers, right ?

Wow...if that story is on some thread somewhere, I'd be interested in seeing it. I think I posted here and on CT the story of the Franklin that went from MS65 to MS67 CAC or something like that. $500 coin to $12,000 coin.

I have seen the Threads and coins that mysteriously went up 2 grades. I don't like it, and if I had sold a coin for $600 that a few years later got 2 upgrades and sold for $6,000 I'd be pissed, too. But BY AND LARGE...in the vast majority of cases....within 1-2 numerical grades....the TPGs and the community get it right. Look, there's (thankfully !!) a limit to how high "grade inflation" can go. There's no way that an MS63 Saint can be passed off as an MS67. Maybe an MS64, maybe with luck it makes it to Gem State MS65. But that's about it. Maybe more numbers can be bypassed when you go from AU to MS but most of the time the $$$ there are not as large so there's no incentive to gradeflate. There are problems with the TPGs and gradeflation, nobody can deny it. But today's hobby IMO would be much much worse had the TPGs never come into existence.