GoldFinger1969

Leeg, Roger is very gracious with his time. But nobody forces him to respond or pesters him -- he'll do so at his convenience and if he feels the post is important enough and worthy of a response. We are certainly grateful that he is helpful and generous in responding to our questions. Most of us have bought his books already and we are looking to stimulate discussion based on our interest and enjoyment in reading his books. The discussion also leads to questions and observations -- some good, some bad -- but not everybody is an expert on these topics so things get cleared up that way. Roger is helpful to all, novice and expert. All we can do to reciprocate is spread the good word to buy his books and maybe find a way to support his research down the line. I can tell you that is one thing I am looking into and I bet I find a receptive audience among others whom he has helped here and on other forums. We are discussing some relatively minor items but there's nothing major going on in many of the books and topics and coins which Roger is an expert in. We do have a thread on his SAINTS book and there's lots of valuable Q&A there. Indeed, I've saved most of the pages in PDF format in case anything happens to the thread and this website. I know myself when I've written articles that have gotten published, I've LOVED the Q&A and feedback from the public. I would guess Roger enjoys it, too. Sorry for the length of this post but I wanted to both thank Roger -- as well as the other participants in this thread for their useful observations and questions -- and respond to your concerns, too.

The sister selling the medals and wanting anonymity could be legit. She could be active and tied to some higher-ups in the RCC and doesn't want it known that she sold the medals given to her brother. Could be embarassing or just ask some uncomfortable questions. Lots of politics in the hierarchy.

I don't know how they measured it -- did they look at 20-year old coins or heavily bang-around some coins 24/7 for a few weeks to approximate 20 years of wear-and-tear ? -- but the reduction from the chart is < 1% for all the coins at the top.

Very interesting.....there aren't that many Cardinals in the United States at any given time (<10 usually, I believe) so checking them all shouldn't be that hard. I wonder if it could have been from a deceased Cardinal from a while back, like John Cardinal O'Connor of New York ? What kind of medals are these ? What have similar ones sold for ? Good luck !

How much loss are we talking about from circulation wear and friction anyway ? I think someone on one of the coin sites did a test -- maybe one of your books Roger mentioned a similar government study (was one referenced in FMTM or the Saints book ?) -- and I think the loss over 10 or 20 years of heavy use was maybe 5% or something like that ? It's not like someone would be coming into a bank or the Mint with hundreds of underweight coins looking to pull a fast one. Anybody know for a SLQ or GW quarter...when the features are almost completely erased from wear, and the coin is almost smooth on both sides, how much of the metal was erased ?

They should create a YouTube video on how to navigate around the portal. Even Heritage's search function has glitches. I ask for auction records on a particular year and mintmark and I get others, too.....the 1927-D always seems to show up ....using quotation marks eliminates the search entirely so that doesn't help. Whatever, on HA I get 2x or 3x or 4x or 5x the number of hits but it's manageable. It's alot more over at the NNP.

The secrecy of some collectors, i.e.. "East Coast collector" baffles me a bit. It's not like someone is going to steal the coins. Same thing with the owner of the 1933 Saint who was generous to donate it to public viewing. Nice guy, generous.....now show your face.

Thanks JT....I now believe all these extra paragraphs and sections are from auction catalogs, especially when concerning David Akers where it is either from his own firm (which he ran for a while) or when he was hired by HA or another auction house. I guess he closed David Akers Numismatics sometime in the 2000's. I've purchased a few relevant catalogs that should have the additional commentary and if I can navigate better around the Newman Portal that will also let me browse without spending any $$$ on stuff that doesn't pan out. And of course, I do have Roger's book which remains my Bible on Saints. At least now I know where to look. Thanks again !

I have to spend more time in the NNP, had trouble navigating my way around the first few times I hit it. Thanks, Roger.

Yes, it appears that a few of the classic catalogs and dated ones from very famous sales (i.e., Eliasberg, Price) or a special FUN Platinum sale like the Duckor 2012 sale, can have lots of commentary on the underlying coins. If it's from Heritage it's likely to be mostly or completely on-line, too (though you can never tell how long something stays online ). Non-Heritage catalogs are NOT online; I wonder if they are in that Newman portal ?

Thanks for that tip, Roger. I was reading some Heritage commentary on-line from past auctions and saw tons more information on some (mostly high-end) Saints than I had seen before. Some of it was from your RoAC book(s) but the direct commentary from David Akers I had trouble tracking down. It was NOT from his 2nd Edition 1907-33 Gold book (and I've been told the 1st Edition doesn't have additional sections/commentary). I believe I have ID'd the source, that being some auction catalogs for which Akers must have directly contributed commentary. Apparently, some of these catalogs (much like the 2005 Morse Saint sale) didn't just regurgitate stuff from previous catalogs and existing books, they had new material. As an example, this is for the Norweb 1908-S MS-67 coin (note the reference, "...the specimen offered here....") David Akers Comments: This issue has the second lowest mintage figure of any regular issue Saint-Gaudens double eagle after the 1907 MCMVII High Relief. This low mintage figure, only 22,000 pieces, undoubtedly contributed to the esteem in which the 1908-S was held throughout the 1940s, 1950s and forward to the present day. At one time it was considered to be at the low end of the fourth tier of Saint-Gaudens double eagle rarity which also consisted of the 1920-S, 1922-S, 1924-D, 1925-S and the late date P-Mints 1929, 1931, and 1932. When offered for sale at auction, all of these issues typically realized only in the $200-$400 price range. Unlike almost all of the double eagle issues minted after World War I, the 1908-S issue was intended and used for general circulation. That is why a much larger percentage of known specimens of the 1908-S are in circulated grades than is the case with other prized dates of the series. Although less rare than the low mintage might imply, choice uncirculated and very choice ones are at least very scarce and gem quality MS65 examples are rare with only about 25-30 known. More superb MS66 and MS67 examples exist of this issue than of most of the other rare dates in the series, but they are still very rare with perhaps 15-18 known. The specimen offered here is, in my opinion, the finest known 1908-S double eagle. I first saw it at the Norweb sale in the fall of 1988 and absolutely fell in love with it. I decided to buy it for myself even though I already owned three other beautiful original gems of the date at the time, including the Eliasberg specimen, also graded MS67 by PCGS. The price for this coin at the Norweb sale was $39,600, the same amount that I paid for the 1926-D, which I later sold to Dr. Thaine Price. The Saints in the Norweb sale were very conservatively and consistently undergraded. For example, the 1925-S and aforementioned 1926-D were graded only MS64 and MS63 respectively. I purchased both of them and subsequently sold them to Dr. Price. After they were sold with his collection in 1998, they were submitted for grading to PCGS and received grades of MS68 and MS66 respectively, the first and second finest of their issues graded. But of all the Saints in the Norweb sale, quality-wise, this 1908-S, graded only MS65 in the sale, was by far the finest. It is a one-of-a-kind Saint-Gaudens double eagle with luster and color that is simply extraordinary and fields and devices close to perfection. Personally, I think this is distinctly under graded in a 67 holder and once I bought it I told everyone that it was the one Saint I owned that I planned to keep "forever." However, in 1990 at the Seattle ANA convention, I made the mistake of showing it for the first time to Dr. Duckor. I had already sold him one of my other gems of the date, but this is the one he knew he just had to have. Over the next 15 years he did his best to convince me that I should sell it to him, that it really belonged in a complete collection of Saints of the quality he was putting together. I finally relented and agreed to sell it to him in 2005 and so "forever" in this case lasted for only 17 years. He was right, though; it did belong in his collection, and I am as proud of it being there as he is. I have to admit, though, despite my saying many times over the years that I never have "seller's remorse" after I decide to sell one of my own personal coins, that this coin is definitely the one exception to that rule. From The Dr. and Mrs. Steven L. Duckor Collection.

Actually, I now think that it came from an auction catalog based on this sentence later on: The specimen offered here is, in my opinion, the finest known 1908-S double eagle. I first saw it at the Norweb sale in the fall of 1988 and absolutely fell in love with it. I decided to buy it for myself even though I already owned three other beautiful original gems of the date at the time, including the Eliasberg specimen, also graded MS67 by PCGS.

JT, can you see if these comments are in the chapter on the 1908-S Saint in the hardcover book ? It's part of a larger section based on what I saw on the Heritage website for the sale of a high-end coin. I can't ID the source: David Akers Comments:This issue has the second lowest mintage figure of any regular issue Saint-Gaudens double eagle after the 1907 MCMVII High Relief. This low mintage figure, only 22,000 pieces, undoubtedly contributed to the esteem in which the 1908-S was held throughout the 1940s, 1950s and forward to the present day. At one time it was considered to be at the low end of the fourth tier of Saint-Gaudens double eagle rarity which also consisted of the 1920-S, 1922-S, 1924-D, 1925-S and the late date P-Mints 1929, 1931, and 1932. When offered for sale at auction, all of these issues typically realized only in the $200-$400 price range. Unlike almost all of the double eagle issues minted after World War I, the 1908-S issue was intended and used for general circulation. That is why a much larger percentage of known specimens of the 1908-S are in circulated grades than is the case with other prized dates of the series. Although less rare than the low mintage might imply, choice uncirculated and very choice ones are at least very scarce and gem quality MS65 examples are rare with only about 25-30 known. More superb MS66 and MS67 examples exist of this issue than of most of the other rare dates in the series, but they are still very rare with perhaps 15-18 known.

Yes, Mercanti has made some interesting silver and gold coins and patterns. I love the Wedge-Tailed Eagles from Australia and the 1oz. and 2 oz. Saint-Gaudens silver and golds are really nice. I thought it was fascinating to see the alternate 1907 UHR and High Relief patterns that Saint-Gaudens drew up be turned into actual coins. Insted of imagining "what if..." we get to see the alternate obverses and reverses on real coins. The SAINT-GAUDENS book goes into this in more depth than anything I had seen before with great pics. Other books and articles just mentioned the alternate designs; Roger goes into them in detail.

Did a bubble develop and then pop ? If not, you'd expect even big price increases to support adequate demand for the available supply. Wouldn't the new collectors, if unable to afford the "hefty price increases", just buy lower-quality coins ? That's interesting that today there are few variety collectors based mostly on past prices pricing them out of the market.

Nice..how much is this coin worth approximately ?

You stick it inside your sweater or put it in your HAPPY DAYS lunch box.

So about 170 ounces or 10.6 pounds.

Well, I checked another HA FUN catalog and again it matched up word-for-word with what is on the HA website for the actual coin auction (at least it's up now, who knows in the future ). If I want new information or commentary on certain coins, I'm going to either have to pre-date the auction companies presence on the internet (c. 2000 for most) or go back to the 1970's and 1980's for specialty catalogs from firms that don't have online auctions or don't re-use the catalog info on the internet word-for-word. Oh well, lesson learned at minimal cost. Catalogs from firms no longer around -- Paramount, Superior, etc. -- may still be worth buying.

WC, check out COLLECTORS CALL with Lisa Welchel ("The Facts Of Life") on Sunday evenings on MeTV (it's on hiatus now, I think). Mancow The Shockjock and Barry "Greg Brady" Williams: You'll see what people are collecting and paying big $$$ for...from the helicopter James Bond/Sean Connery used in YOU ONLY LIVE TWICE to Batmobiles, 1960's Christmas Special setups, comics, action figures, etc.

How much gold did this guy take/steal ?

I think all employees at the Mints who come into contact with gold or silver -- including West Point -- go through sophisticated metal detectors that would pick up if you had a piece of gold the size of one of those pastina minis you eat in soup.

Yes, Taubman owned Sotheby's....and when it was bought it was for about $2-$3 billion or 3-4x the purchase price for CU. Excellent point. But the smaller purchase price for CU must mean there is growth SOMEWHERE in the company. I think it's in collectibles and sports memorabilia where stuff is pricey and it's easier to grow the top line by getting fat rates on a smaller number of expensive items rather than grow baseball card grading and/or coin certification. You buy something from a Marvel movie and it is $50,000 that's $500 - $2,000 probably right there.

Both are private. Sotheby's was public at one time I believe, but you can't have a business like that -- with lumpy quarterly and annual results -- at the whims of the public market. Plus, there is confidential information that is key to securing future sales and revenue streams...you can't give that information out and not put yourself at a competitive disadvantage or tee off your own clients.

We still don't know WHY they want CU and at such a big premium to the stock price the last few quarters. It doesn't appear to be based on a big volume increase for grading coins or sports cards. I wonder if it the Authentication Division or whatever it is called that authenticates alot of memorabilia and collectibles stuff. Providing a Certificate of Authenticity for a costume used in an AVENGERS movie is alot more lucrative than grading some cards or coins. Alot of people are ditching their personal possessions...movie studios and other companies, too....ex-atheletes....it sells faster and for more $$$ if it's legit and authenticated. Of course, it does appear this trimming/overgrading problem left a big stink but the folks at CU/PSA must not believe it's a killer reputation-wise or liability-wise. Well, Heritage has a pretty good data base...it's a bit unwieldly at times and sometimes coins other than what I want come up. The problem is that no 2 coins are exactly alike to it's a guestimate at best for any grade. I think that GC also has a database (I'm sure they're saving the data)....I haven't been able to find/use it yet, but I've saved all my 1907 Saint High Relief auctions over the last few quarters and have a few dozen sales prices that went off on the site. RED BOOKS and GUIDE BOOKS also have pricing information and Roger Burdette's SAINTS book has a 40-year price table for each year and mintmark, if you are into Saints (which I am ).